In this episode, David and Mike with Alvin Johnson discussing about Multifamily Madness. Don't miss this episode.
David: Alright guys, welcome back to the Discount Property Investors, your hosts David Dodge and Mike Slane. Hey, Mike!
Mike: Hey, Dave.
David: How are ya? good morning.
Mike: I'm doing great, how you doing?
David: I'm doing well, I am doing well.
Mike: Good good.
David: So today we have a special guest, Mr Alvin Johnson, he is a personal friend of mine. I met Alvin last February, so about nine or ten months ago down in Tulum Mexico at a mastermind. Alvin is doing some really cool and creative and interesting things with real estate.
As you know, Mike and are the Discount Property Investors. We love wholesaling and teaching people how to buy properties at a discount. You should know by now if you followed us or listened and watch, that you make your money when you buy, you get payed when you sell. So having the ability or knowledge to find these deals at a discount is really the foundation, it's the building blocks of all things real estate investing. So wholesale to us is a means to an end. We love it, we are passionate about it, but it is also a means to an end to be able to get that really good deal on our next flip project, or a great deal so we can add to our rental portfolio using the BRRRR strategy, which Mike and I have done a lot of episodes previously about the strategy.
Alvin, welcome to the show, how are you my man?
Alvin: Hey man I am doing great. I want to thank you guys for having me on. It is an amazing day today, I am sitting here looking out my office window. It is raining here in Dallas. Just an amazing weekend, man, isn't it?
David: Absolutely, man. We are exciting. I am going to the Cardinals game tonight, got a three day weekend coming up. This is really cool. Alvin, let's jump in, alright? Let's jump in. When I met you down in Tulum, I was just really impressed with some of the things that you were doing, and that's some of the things I want to talk about today on this podcast, so we can enlighten some people, and just really open people's minds to some of the possibilities that are out there in the real estate space.
Mike and I primarily focus on single family rentals, we do have a couple of multis, we have a ten family, we have a four family, a couple of four families, then probably six or eight duplexes. We are just getting started to move into that space. A majority of the deals that we do for the holdings that we have, which as of today is 49 rental properties rented and online, our goal is 150. Again, I am really happy to have you on to learn so much about some of these multi family things. If you don't mind, tell us-- let's start with two things, one, how did you get started in real estate? Two, why multi family? What's the reason that you are kind or primarily focused on that?
Alvin: Okay, couple of things, David. I got started in real estate as a painter's helper right out of high school.
David: A painter's helper.
Alvin: I don't know if I had a choice or not, but I had to eat so I mastered that craft of painting, which taught me how to finish. If you can go take a raggedy building and put some texture and paint it, put some baseboard on it, guess what? You know how to finish really well. I think anything you start you really have to have the end goal or picture in mind so you can navigate your way towards finishing. So that is what gave me my start in this, and I think the reason multi family-- Mike and David, has been-- it has kind of evolved, but I tell ya-- I was in a seminar yesterday and people were asking, what's your why? A lot of us-- we all have a story, and my why is really I just want to help the next guy. I am big on empowering other people to go and be their best. We have an opportunity to do that throughout multi family properties, because we actually serve the undeserved population, is a population of people that we serve. So we buy apartments, and we lease them to the economically disadvantaged or economically challenged, and we give them a place where they get to stay instead of a place they have to stay.
David: Are your primarily working-- or are you only working with the under privileged essentially? Or is that just a primary business?
Alvin: Not necessarily. When I say that, we operate under a non profit umbrella, but I say under-served market, it is a lot of tenants have Section 8 vouchers, a lot of them have government assistance. It is also the McDonald's manager-- maybe not McDonald's manager, but maybe your guy that is a manager of a store and he makes $40'000 a year, but he can't afford to pay 1500-1600 a month rent.
Alvin: He has a great job, but he is paycheck to paycheck. In our communities we have a lot of teachers that make 50'000 a year, but they have three kids, and they can't afford to pay 1800 a month in rent. So our apartments, we buy them right, so we make money where we buy them, then we renovate them and put millions of dollars into them and give them a place I am proud to say we own, and a place I would live in and be proud to say I lived in. So now our rents are not the 1500 mark, we may have a three bedroom at 1050, versus 1500. That's the under-served population that a lot of people are not focusing on, because--.
David: I need to correct what I said, you said under-served, I used the terminology under privileged, which is wrong. So I need to correct that. I apologize.
Alvin: I said that, I said economically disadvantaged.
David: That's way better terminology, I love that.
Mike: I just got very excited Alvin.
David: This is going to be a good show, I told you.
Mike: -- something that is my long term plan. Again, this is selfish, I want to take care of me and mine first. I want to make a big nest egg, have a bunch of apartments, then I wanted to do--.
David: I don't look at that as being selfish though, it's hard to help people whenever you haven't helped yourself.
Mike: Again, I know it. I am okay with capitalism, green is good. I am okay with that. What I'm saying is that's my future, I want to do something like what you're doing Alvin. This is very interesting.
David: This is going to be great.
Alvin: It's easy to make your dreams come true if you are helping others make their come true. So many people that just wish they had a great place to live where they are not getting shot in the parking lot and gang banging outside the door of their apartment. We work really hard to provide those environments in those neighborhoods.
David: Before we jump in and get too granular with what you do and how it works, and how you are helping people. Tell us a little bit about how long you have been doing the multi family investing? You mentioned you have been doing real estate for a while, started out as a painter's assistant, man you have come far, which is just awesome, phenomenal, we love that, great story. But tell me a little bit about maybe some of the current things you're working on, then we will jump into how it works and why you should be doing it this way.
Alvin: Sounds good. The particular company I am president of today, I have been president since 2011. I have been involved in multi families since 2009, so about ten years. I have owned two mortgage companies, did really well in that. Lost my shirt a couple of times, did good lost it, did good, lost it. Prior to that I did a hundred or so flips that I personally bought with hard money.
David: Fix and flips?
Alvin: Fix and flips. I did that before the mortgage company and after having it, and prior to that it was just contracting for other people. I would help people get their house fixed up by being a contractor and GC, then back all the way up to my days of starting as a painter's helper. That was the beginning of it.
David: You have done a lot of things in real estate. It seems to me like you were just trying to find your stride, man.
Alvin: I was just trying to eat.
David: Right. Since 2009 you have really taken off, which is awesome. Let's talk about that. What was the reason back in 2009 when you decided this is what I want to do. What was the motivating factor that kind of pushed you in that direction?
Alvin: Great question. This is going to be great for your audience, because your audience is engaged with you because of the information that you're providing to them, right? They are engaged because you are acting in a capacity of a mentor. Well I needed a mentor. The only way that I could get a mentor was going and serve somebody else that was doing what I wanted to do.
David: I love that.
Alvin: I was forty something years old, I am not going to tell you my age, but I was forty something years old ten years ago, and this guy has 16'000 apartments in nine States, and I went to go serve him. I told him, man if you don't let me in the room, I will sharpen your pencil, shine your shoes, whatever I can do. I just need to be in that room.
David: I got to stop you right there. If you are listening to this podcast, if you are watching this episode online, that alone is a super valuable lesson, guys. Go work for free, put yourself out there. You are never too young or too old in real estate. That is the beautiful thing about real estate. If you can offer to help somebody in exchange for education, learning, mentorship; that is the best thing you can possibly do. You could always go hire these people, but I personally am like Alvin. I would rather just go work for free and run errands, and do what I need to do to earn that person's respect so they will want to train me, versus them have to have that mindset of-- oh he has paid me so now I have to train him. So Alvin, sorry to interrupt, but guys, if you are not taking notes on this, you have got to be.
Alvin: That's how I got started, it started out as a 30 day deal, he put me up for 30 days. He didn't know that when I showed up with the biggest suitcase that I had, it was pretty much all of my suits and all of my clothes. My life had fallen apart and almost got thrown out of my house by my wife at that time. So I had nothing to lose, but I really went with the heart of serving somebody else. That 30 days turned into 13 months, that 13 months lead-- this guy-- I showed up as a volunteer, this guy had 16'000 apartments in nine States. He gave me fully access to--.
David: 16'000 or 1600? Either of those is large.
David: Damn that's big.
Alvin: So for me to get his attention first of all was a big deal. Let me back up a little bit. I met this guy in the summer of 2007, he told me he would help me. I reached out to him three times by phone, he answered my call. After the third time he quit answering my call. I called him, text him, e-mailed him every week for almost a year without fail.
Alvin: One day he picked the phone up, March 1st and said, Alvin I am so sick of you calling me. He knew who I was, so my name--.
David: Oh he had it saved.
Alvin: He said, if you want to know what I do, you get down here to Amarillo Texas, I have never known anybody with just-- say they want it by do what you have done to get it. So I showed up, big suitcase, that 30 days led to 13 months. Here's the kicker. After 12 months he had given me full access, and I sat there and read partnership agreement after partnership agreement. I didn't understand why I was reading it. I became a student. After 90 days he started giving me pay, so obviously I had added a little value to him wanting to keep me around. After 13 months he died in a car wreck. I became the president of a billion dollar company in 13 months because I asserted myself as being a student.
David: Led by serving, coolest thing ever. First job I ever had out of college, I wanted it so bad I said, you don't have to pay me. Same scenario. After about a month and a half they are like, you are too valuable to leave at this point. If you want something bad enough, guys, sometimes you have to sacrifice a little to get it. Look at where we are at now. That's great, very cool. So 13 months later a tragedy happened, sorry to hear about that. He was, he lost his life in a car accident, then you became the president, wow, what a story.
Alvin: Here I am a president of a billion dollar company. The company was in bankruptcy, I knew that. There was another opportunity. But it was a chapter 11 in liquidating bankruptcy, and those two almost don't go together. The purpose was to restructure it and liquidate the asset. So I went through that process, walking through a bankruptcy with the smartest attorneys on the planet. A billion dollar company had about 180 entities, 66 complexes in nine States. So you can think of all the governmental regulations and everything that went with all of that. A lot of it was affordable housing.
David: That's a lot of mail. We have 65-70 properties, I can't even imagine--.
Alvin: It came in boxes everyday. I hate the mail man.
David: It's all bills.
Alvin: It's all bills. I learned this business that way. After that bankruptcy plan was over with, I got fired and of course don't need a president with a bankruptcy plan, that's the plan. So whatever I thought didn't matter and I got fired. Fortunately I made some great relationships to where the man that died, his son in law said, here is a company that doesn't have any money, got 10'000 bucks in the bank, has a resume, maybe if anybody can do something with it you can. I told him great, it's got ten grand, go buy me a server. He looked at me and said, you don't have a job, you don't have any money, I am giving you a company with $10'000 and you're going to buy a computer? I said, well if I am going to go buy some apartments I have to had a place to store my data.
Alvin: We used that computer--. Sorry about that. So we use that computer for about seven years and it served us well. Today we have got 1400 apartments, we have another thousand units in escrow that should close on September 23rd. We've got a development of-- this is something new I have never done before. We've got a development of 360 houses that we are going to build new construction out of the ground.
David: So you are developing a whole neighborhood essentially?
Alvin: We are developing a whole neighborhood from utility streets, I am doing that with one of our multiplier partners downstairs. He is going to be part of that. You talk about relationships, that's another good topic for your audience. You will never do anything great by yourself. You guys are sitting there as partners, so--.
David: We already know the game, man. So Mike and I, we have a goal to get to a 150 singles. We just started like ten months ago. The goal is to get to 150 by the end of 2020.
David: We have a way to go, but again, you couldn't do that by yourself. You have to--.
Mike: What's so funny, is that it is such a big goal for us. All of our listeners are like, you want to own 150 rentals, wow. We are sitting here talking to Alvin and he owns 1600. It's crazy.
David: I love it. I am grateful for the opportunity Alvin. Thank you for spending some time with us today.
Alvin: It's my pleasure. Goal is 20'000 units. We want to do 2000 units a year. Again, I can't do it by myself. It's all in partnerships. All about the syndication piece we just talked about, right? If I can show-- I have been hidden for a long time, I have never done podcasts before, never done any public speaking, because I have been on the backside of the mountain really perfecting our craft, putting together a good foundation of a company. I am starting to come out and make myself a little bit more visible now because we have done it, we have proven our model, we have yielded our investors 62% within three to four years of investing with us. It's just absolutely amazing the opportunity is that-- a dude that barely finished high school, could be in a position today to have 50 employees, 100 sub contractors working for us, 1400 families living under our roofs with a goal of 20'000 units. As you said, you are never too old to do this, you are never too old to learn.
David: Or young. If you are listening and you are 14-15 years old, there is no reason you can't wholesaling deals morrow and saving cash, absolutely. Alvin, we are going to pivot for one second. So your company is Hope Housing Foundation?
Alvin: Yes, sir.
David: So tell me a little bit about the company real quick, then we are going to dive into the meat and potatoes and talk about what you actually do day to day, and how it all works.
Alvin: Okay, Hope Housing Foundation is a twenty year old organization. I took over ten years ago. It was initially set up as a support organization, as a profit center for the other non profit. When you got 16'000 apartments, you got a fire going on somewhere, you got a tornado that just hit, you have got something. This company was set up to manage those construction projects as a non profit to save on sales tax dollars for the original developer. You save 9% on all of your projects that's huge.
David: That's huge.
Alvin: So then, that's how this company has a resume of doing multi family deals through all of the repair projects they had done for the other organization. The last ten years when we took over I didn't want it to be a construction company. We wanted to go back to the original mission of providing the safe and sanitary housing. That was the path we took and said, okay we are going to buy some apartments. Now how are we going to do that? We don't have any money, we don't have any relationships, but I got a [00:20:50.08 - inaudible] and I am going to figure it out. Here we are ten years later. Ten years, that's a long time.
David: That's awesome. That's kind of how Mike and I were with wholesaling and all things real estate. I have hired a lot of coaches over the years, but at the end of the day I still have to figure out what they are teaching me.
Alvin: That's right.
David: Got to just figure it out. Man, I can relate. I think that's really cool. So that's the Hope Housing Foundation. You have been a part of that for about ten years, they have been around for twenty. When you took it over you kind of pivoted a little bit, which is great, I love that. So let's jump into some of the meat and potatoes if that's okay with you.
David: Anything you want to throw out at any time or if you have any questions for us, please ask. I am just intrigued. It seems to me like you guys are syndicating a lot of the money to do these deals, which I think is awesome. Let's start at the very beginning. In order to do one of these deals you have to find the deal. You can't pay retail for anything in real estate if you want to make money on it.
Alvin: That's right.
David: 99.9% of the time you have to buy at a discount. Our podcast and our brand, Discount Property Investor. We always buy at a discount, and the reason is, you make your money when you buy, you get paid when you sell. So you are getting deals on multis, let's start there. How in the hell would I go about getting a deal on a multi?
Alvin: I'l tell ya, I started with a deal that nobody else wanted. As-- even your wholesale guys, your guys that are wanting to do fix and flips, don't have any money, maybe they can talk their way into selling it, got some experience. But the path of least resistance was the one nobody else wanted. So I found a deal, and I just drove. I drive to properties every day, every weekend, I always have. What do you do for fun? I go look at real estate. That's what I do.
David: Me too.
Alvin: I see a run down house and go, man look what that could be. So you get it, right?
David: Or I drive around and look at the big mansions and say, how quickly am I going to get to this?
Alvin: I have used brokers before believe it or not. Guys that own real estate that don't want t anymore. We've got data today like [00:23:23.16 - inaudible] and all of these deals that can filter your searches to properties that are built 40 years ago that haven't had a capital item like a sale or a refinance happen in the last 15 years. Those are the guys that are either motivated to sell, or those are the guys that don't know what to do, they may have inherited the deal, right? Another way to find these deals is to go to your city records, because if those properties have been a nuisance, or if they have open cases of rotten roofs or broken windows or something like that, the cities write those citations, and that is a matter of public record. I have never done that, man, this is just coming out as we talk. That is a great source of finding properties that have either been abandoned or in deep need of repair.
David: Right. So it is basically pretty similar to what we do. Same thing, right? When we target a motivated seller, we are looking for any reason for them to be motivated. Obviously there are two categories that I like to say that I can put all of the motivated sellers in. One, they are distressed, two the property is distressed, and the third category would be a combination of both. Not only their distress, but the property is distressed. Those are the best ones because you can get the best prices, and it is still a win win. You are helping solve their problem. I would imagine it is very similar in the aspect of multis. Is that right?
Alvin: There is nothing different in multi versus single. More doors, more keys and more zeros. That's it.
David: Love it. That's a great way to describe it. More doors, more keys and more zeros. That is exactly right, I love it.
Alvin: That same approach when you find that motivated seller, then that's where your expertise kicks in. You have to make a relationship with this guy, and you may not have the ability to close it, you may not have the money to close it. I can tell you there has never been a deal that we have bought where we already had the money in the bank, never.
David: Say that again. There has never been a deal that you bought-- basically at the time of making the offer that you had the cash in the bank?
David: Love it, never. Mike and I, we use the BRRRR strategy, I would imagine-- kind of the exact same-- like progress, but it is similar though. So when we buy houses to flip or to add to the portfolio, we use private lenders, hard money lenders, refinance our money out. So it's similar in that aspect.
Alvin: Exactly the same.
David: Exactly the same.
Alvin: I will find a deal. If you are gracious enough to let me negotiate a good letter of intent that I can get-- I need a 45 day due diligence period. Within that 45 days, I can walk a property in a few hours and say what I need to change to get it up to par, right? So then my next 44 days are spent looking for who has got my money.
David: Yeah, who has my money! I love it. Hell yeah! So the process in finding the deals are really pretty similar. So right now, you are finding a lot of your deals through brokers, is that right?
Alvin: I am, and---
David: -- but as of today, the majority of these are from brokers and that's great. Nothing wrong with that. It works.
Alvin: It works. It can only just get better if direct to the seller, right? Or if I built a platform big enough to where the seller came looking for me.
David: Absolutely. That would be the goal. So Mike and I it is the same way. We will get a deal off the MLS and it's a little different with being residential versus these bigger commercial type buildings. There is still a system right. It's harder for us to find the motivated seller on the MLS. I want to emphasize harder, we still get them all the time. But, when we go direct we tend to get a little bit of a better deal because we are not paying the middle man, and that's really what I look at as the agency thing. They are a kind of a middle man, they are helping of course, but it's just more money we have to break out. So the aspects that-- the way in which you're are locating these properties is really simple. You are trying to target motivation, and you are leveraging the relationships of these agents and brokers to help find those for you. That's awesome. So let's talk about what you're looking for. Also, where at, if you don't mind putting those together. You're in Dallas, you mentioned that earlier, I knew that. But, you are not buying in North Dakota, right?
Alvin: North Dakota is a stretch, but if the deal was right I would go to North Dakota.
David: Good to know.
Alvin: We are not geographically challenged.
David: Sure, that's a good question, I am glad I asked that.
Alvin: I can get anywhere from Dallas in two or three hours. We are about to buy a jet in January.
David: Damn, we have to get a jet, Mike! I got about $400 of private time.
Alvin: This is great, but I'm serious. Now I will say I am going to get a jet. I don't have the money for a jet, but I know they finance them. I know they finance them, I work really hard to protect my credit, but I know if I can do that, if I can get my team on the ground to find-- to look at these deals and do the due diligence, and if I can get home and get to where I need to be, and find a guy that has got my money faster, guess what? We can close my deals. I sound like someone else you listen to, don't I?
David: Absolutely you do. Absolutely you do. I was just watching one of his videos the other day. He is like, man this jet, the only reason I have this thing is so I can get to the deal faster. Of course I use it for travel, of course I use it for social media, but it's to get to the deal faster. I was like, man, mind blown, very very cool. So Alvin, tell us what you're looking for. We all know there is a lot of multi families out there, and I am sure you get people sending you deals all day long. What is it that you see in a deal that makes it interesting for you? Is it location? Is it quality? Is it distance to your home? Is it number of units? Is it all of these things?
Alvin: I will tell ya, there are two things that are automatic for me. The first thing is that it has to be at least a hundred units. Why do I say a hundred units? That is about the threshold for that property to support a full manager, and a fully maintenance person. We typically do full time on site.
David: Got it, okay.
Alvin: Typically the rule of thumb is one person inside, and one person outside per hundred units. If it's a tougher neighborhood or a tougher older budget, you might take that down to 75 units. For every 75 units you have got one and one, okay? So that's the first thing. The second thing I look at is the in place cap rate. If you send me a deal today that as a in place cap rate, I will explain that for the people that don't understand cap rate. But if it had a 9.5% in place cap rate, I almost don't care what it looks like, I'm interested, right?
David: 9.5 and above?
Alvin: So cap rate for the audience, Dave, is your-- all of your income minus your expenses before debt service and taxes, is your net operating income. You take that net operating income and divide that by a 9.5 cap rate, and that will give you a value. So let me give you some round numbers. Let's just say you found a property that has a $100'000 a year net operating income. If I divide that by .095, which is a 9.5 cap rate, that is going to give me a value of one million, fifty two thousand dollars, okay? The thought process is to buy that property at a million bucks, and to turn that property around to where I can get a 6.5 cap rate which is what most appraisers use for evaluation.
David: That basically a standard 6.5 like-- a country wide standard essentially? I would imagine each market is--.
Alvin: In Florida right now you can't buy a property in Florida for less than [00:32:25.12 - inaudible]. Five or below--.
David: That's what they are going for?
Alvin: That's just what they are going for. I will tell you a couple of the big drivers that do that. In Florida a lot of rental properties and apartments-- your tenants pay their trash, and they pay for water consumption for their unit. So they are taking that $200'000 expense for water and sewer, and that $100'000 expense from trash and they are billing it back to all the units.
David: They can afford to charge a little bit less of a rate, because they are having less risk and less expense so on and so forth?
Alvin: The lower the cap rate, the higher the value.
David: The higher the value, okay?
Alvin: A 9.5 cap rate, that $100'000 is a million dollars in value. But, at a 6.5 cap rate, that same deal is worth a million and five.
Alvin: See the difference in just the cap rate?
Alvin: So the lower the cap the higher the value. So I want to buy at a high cap, the value is low, so after we do all of our upgrades, and all of our upgrades, and all of our improvements and raising and stabilizing of rents, my cap rate goes down by my value goes up like a seesaw.
David: Got it, okay that makes sense. So what are you looking for though? In terms of area? You said minimum of a hundred because of the on site management and maintenance, I love that, I am totally on board and I understand why. If you got somebody that is bouncing around, it's inefficient, things will get overlooked, it is just not great. We love that. In terms of location, does that effect you? You mentioned from the get go that you are working with-- I think the best way to describe it would be under privileged, just everyday people that don't make a lot.
Alvin: Let's call it under served.
David: -- in like the city center right? You are not necessarily going to be in the A neighborhoods, maybe B's and C's though?
Alvin: I've worked out way into B, B - neighborhoods, my first deal was right across the street from two cemeteries at the furthest south point in that city you could get to. But guess what? When I bought it, it was 110 single family homes operated as an apartment complex. One legal description, and they built it as an apartment community, okay?
David: That's interesting.
Alvin: The rents were $390 and it was 98%-- three bed one bath house.
David: For 390 a month?
Alvin: Yes, and that was six years ago.
David: Our average three bed one bath here in St Louis that we have in our portfolio, obviously it is going to vary-- what's our average, Mike? 950? About a thousand bucks. Those people were only bringing in 390, so just right there, folks. If you're watching, you're listening, you should have some bells going off. The market rents were probably lower, or these rents were probably lower than the market rents, but then as you start improving these properties, which you can do a lot of ways. I am sure Alvin has a wealth of information about that.
Alvin: I talked to-- it was a liability for them, so you are solving their problem. All they wanted was out of the trap. So they sold me that deal for a million dollars. But, they didn't sell it to me right away. They said, we will give you a 1.01% GP ownership. Which means we are going to give you one year to prove that you can do this, because nobody else wanted it. They gave me the controlling interest, but it was only 1.01, which means I didn't make a penny. But, I had an opportunity to start a management company from that one deal. But, we made a little bit from the management fee. They gave me a year to do it, and they gave me a year to do it. So that' what the contract does. You set your parameters, when you can close, when you can cash them out, the whole nine yards, so that expectation was set on both ends, then I had to go find a guy to give me a million dollars to pay off that, and $400'000 to repair as much as I could just to start raising the rents. So I shopped around for anybody that had a million and four that said, a hundred houses? A million and four? How can I go wrong?
David: Right. -- a million and four liquid right now, I would jump all over that deal. A hundred houses? That's insane, you're talking-- what's that? Doing the plumbing and HVAC alone is going to be fifteen grand.
Alvin: Fully occupied it wasn't making any money. But, when we got the $400'000, we immediately painted the outside, we immediately patched the roof, replaced roofs that were bad on those houses. We made sure all the air conditioning worked. We went in and put in some new appliances in some, just to-- we just started cutting the grass, because when I went there the first time, the grass was six feet high.
David: Holy cow!
Alvin: We just started doing the things like that to let them know, hey there is a new owner and we care, we are not going to raise the rent to $800 tonight, but we care. So little but little as the people started renewing their leases, we went from 390 to 450. On the new move ins, because we had an opportunity to make those look better, we went straight to 450. So we didn't displace anybody, and we went from 450 to 495. From 495 we went to 550. Right now after six years the new move ins are paying 745, but the people that have been there the whole time are still paying about 650 to 686 and still have a 150 to go, but our income on that deal went from $29'000 a month to over $77'000 a month today, our NOI -- let me tell you the beauty of this. You talk about making money when you buy. We bought that deal for a million and four, three years later we refinanced it for 3.9 million. I paid off my million and four. We stacked money in a repair replacement reserve account, me and my partners drove home, and drew a million dollars out of the deal.
Mike: That's awesome.
David: How cool is that? That's a deal right there.
Mike: That's how you get your jet.
David: Yeah that's awesome. Again, you make your money when you buy, guys. Alvin, you came across a deal that nobody wanted too. This wasn't like it was handed to him on a silver platter. He saw something in it that everybody else didn't see. It wasn't that some people didn't see it. I am sure this was probably a listed deal.
Alvin: It wasn't a listed deal, it was one of those distressed deals.
David: Everybody had the ability to at least see it.
David: You saw something they didn't see. You borrowed a million plus 400 to fix them up. You slowly started raising the rents, but I liked that you didn't just come in and be like, boom! Everyone's month to month rent goes up. You made improvements, you showed people that you cared which is so important in this business. I mean-- real estate is a people business.
Alvin: It is.
David: You are buying and selling property, but that's the product. The business is with the people, right?
Alvin: That's right.
David: So you've made improvements. You started raising the rents as these became available, or slowly crept it up with people in a manner to keep them around. Also not-- have a bunch of vacancies. You did everything right obviously, that's why we are talking today. I love the fact that you guys took the passion to not just go in and kick everybody out. You did it in a manner that hey, we realize that the last guy was just badly managing this, so we are going to do everything we can to turn this around. We appreciate you guys sticking through this, lease stick around as well, and we are going to make it better for everybody. Man, that's cool.
Alvin: When you-- we own real estate, where do most people have their problems? At home. So guess what? We inherit a lot of that. When they know that they live in a place where the owner cares about them, they will pay up a bit more. That's ho they build community, that's how you foster community, that's how you get neighbors to care about each other, because now they have something to talk about, and they start coming out and meeting the people that have lived next to them for two or three years and they have never seen before.
David: Love it. Something just came to my mind. So you said in that example earlier, and obviously every deal is different, guys. Every deal is different for me, I know every deal is going to be different for Alvin as well. You said in an example earlier, we put out an LOI, which stands for letter of intent. We would need 45 days. Alvin said that you could go basically look at the property, then the other 44 days, where is the money? Where's my money at? In that one day, can you walk us through what you would do? Obviously this is just a hypothetical question. On average typically, what does that day look like? What are you looking for?
Alvin: When I show up, the first thing I look for are the roofs, condition of the roofs, I look at the age of the AC units, air conditioners. I look at the foundations to see if I see any-- cracks in the brick or structure. Those are your major things. Then when I go in, I used to--.
David: Let's say it's a hundred units--.
Alvin: I usually look at all of the vacants, any units that they consider down, beyond vacant, which are like total gutted--.
David: They might be on the list of-- we will get to these basically, but we have turns in the mean time type of thing?
Alvin: I had a kitchen fire and that one was not a quick fix.
David: That's going to take a minute to get it back, right?
Alvin: I look at those, and if they show me some occupied units fine. But I can tell enough from the mechanicals of the hot water heaters, the age of the those, the AC units, the roofs and the windows. Those are my major components. I ask to look at the light fixtures and door knobs and stuff like that. Now I know that when we buy this we are going to change all of that. So I am looking at the age of the appliances and the major components.
David: Got it.
Alvin: That's about it. But I look for little things too, David. I look for your plumbing clean outs. Are those clean outs off of those buildings? If they are, that means they probably have had to snake those out quite a bit. So I am looking, is this cast iron plumbing, or is it PVC? If you have a 45 year old property with a lot of trees, they might have major plumbing issues.
Alvin: -- that you can't see. So I am just taking note of that, so if I have to replace plumbing under this building, it might cost me fifteen grand per building. So I am just logging that in the back of my head.
David: Right, so you're looking at the big things on average, looking that roofs, looking at the mechanicals-- you're not nit picking about paint colors, you are not nit picking about--. Ideally if it's a trashy looking unit--.
Alvin: You know that anyway.
David: You are kind of looking for that in a sense. Awesome. So you find these deals, we talked about that. Talked about what you're looking for when you send out those LOI's. Let's talk about the next 44 days. What do you do?
Alvin: CPA's, we all have relationships, right? You know CPA's that manage guy's money.
David: They are dealing with it already.
Alvin: They are dealing with the guy who made $50'000 too much this year, and he might be looking for a place to park some money in a year or two. My CPA, attorneys, do they have any friends that want to do this. I reach out to other real estate investors, hey man, you want to help me raise a million dollars? Let's partner on this deal.
Alvin: We do a lot of the leg work, total transparency, all of our books are open, you can log on and see what our tax returns were for the last two years, right? We have got nothing to hide, 100% that kind of transparency to a partnership. All the guards go down, but I am really talking to any and everybody that I can, or that I know-- who has my money?
David: I love it.
Alvin: It's all about my money, because I am bringing you something you've been looking for, you just didn't know I had it.
David: Absolutely, and that is the beautiful thing about raising money for these type of deals. You are offering most likely a better rate of return that the people that are going to be getting at any bank, you can guarantee that. The stock market, yeah you can get good returns, but you can also lose. Every investment has risks, I get that. You're right, a lot of times people don't know that there are these options out there. Which is cool, and all our hard money-- or should I said private money lenders that we work with now, it's access cash for them, some of them are real estate investors, some of them are not. They know that whenever they come to me we are going to pay them 10 or 12% on their money, and it is backed by a real asset. You have a lot of things that come into play. I guess the next question that I have is-- are you typically taking 20,50,100 from multiple people and putting it in a bundle together? Or is it more along the lines of I am looking for three guys with $100'000 each? Does it matter?
Alvin: It doesn't matter, typically when we do a syndication like that, if I don't have one guy that has got two million that wants to park it, we will set units at about $50'000 a piece.
David: Got it.
Alvin: We have accredited investors. We could lower that. I have one deal that has 24 partners in it. Each of them bought a $50'000 unit, so you have one guy that says, yeah man I will get my toe in, I will buy one. Then you have some guys that have done this before and they have bought ten.
David: The follow up question to that is, if they are not getting any ownership though, or are they? I guess every deal is a little different. It depends how you structure-- how do you prefer? That's a better way to ask that question, how do you prefer to structure that with these lenders? Are they equity share holders? Or is a debt play?
Alvin: We do both.
Alvin: The one with the 24 partners-- we put together a limited partnership. We had the 1% GP that was managed by our foundation.
Alvin: Then we have your limited partner, your special limited partner, and you have your special investor limited partner. Now what are the three categories? I am the limited partner so we have an interest in it. I am the working guy. Then you have got your special limited partner that put in cash. Then you got the guys that may be part of the syndication group that have a smaller portion of it, because however we structure it. Typically what we do David we would give our investor limited partners a 49% share of the asset, okay? So that's the guys that put in the money. So they put their $50'000 units into one partnership, so I don't have 50 different partners in this group. But, that partnership interest that they own, owns 49% of the asset. They are protected by ownership in the deal.
David: Sure, okay.
Alvin: What that does is that allows me to pass on 49.5% of the depreciation to them.
David: A huge advantage to anyone that doesn't know about real estate investing, especially if you're dealing with single families like Mike and I, there is not a lot of cash flow there. So what's the play? Well the play is to have someone else pay down the debt, then also use the advantages that tax allows. Love that, Alvin, love that.
Alvin: The first two years there is not a lot of cash flow, because we are buying these and renovating them.
Alvin: If we pay a million dollars for this deal and we spend $200'000 on it, and you invest $50'000 and we raise $300'000. So you get a [00:50:27.06 - inaudible] share of all of this $300'000 in year one that have as a write off.
David: Love it.
Alvin: Not only are you getting a preferred return we offered you anywhere from 8-10%, you have made money that year. But also your tax base is reduced on your primary job by whatever your write offs are. So you not only made a little money, you made more money because your taxes went down.
David: Yeah, wow.
Alvin: So you've got your limited partner which is our foundation, your special limited partner which is the guy that put in the money-- sorry your guys that syndicated it. Your invested limited partners that put in the money. The other 51% is owned by the 1% GP, then you have your 50% owner which is your-- limited partner, and your special limited partner. They own 50%, your investors own 49.5% of that--.
David: And the 1% is to who?
Alvin: The general partner which is the foundation. The only reason is that it gives us control of the assets so we can manage it and do the tax matters and stuff.
David: Are all of them structured either that way or very close to that way?
Alvin: Yes, every one of them. You will find that kind of arrangement very standard from your small guy to institutional [00:51:52.06 - inaudible] typically use limited partnerships.
David: I would assume, I am getting a little ahead of myself here because I am so excited, thank you again for coming on. I am in a candy shop right now. This is great. You are using leverage though on top of raising money. These deals are no money out of your pocket essentially?
Alvin: Can I say it?
David: Hell yeah! I love it. That's the beautiful thing, that's what we do with our rental portfolio, we are on the single family side. This is great, because Mike and I have the same mind set and goals like-- hey we can get to 150, that will just be a cool number, gives us credibility of course. We have a lot of fun doing it, we're great friends. Once we get to 150, then what? We are both pretty young. Then what? Well then we are going to start doing these bigger deals. I am just super excited about this. So you are essentially-- you are raising capital from multiple people or syndications or both, then you are using that as like your 20%, right? Roughly, even maybe 10%. I guess it depends on your lenders. You are going out on the back end and you are getting another 80-90%.
Alvin: Yes. That is-- you have a purchase price, and if you just went straight in at the purchase price, we might get 75-80% leverage, okay? So you need--.
David: Simple math, million dollar building--.
Alvin: Might get a loan of 800'000.
David: That's just the standard typical deal.
Alvin: Yes, and then you through your rehab on top of that. Now you have 300'000.
Alvin: Also lenders will give you credit for that 300'000 and say your total costs are a million and three, and they will give you 75-80% of that million and three.
David: Even if you only have to come up with-- 25% of the million and three then?
Alvin: Then you come up with 25% of the million and three, versus 25% plus 300'000.
David: That's a big difference.
Alvin: That's a big difference. So then we have got leverage there, non recourse debt, then you have a syndication--.
David: Hold on I have to stop you right there. Non recourse--.
Alvin: I was waiting for you--.
David: Absolutely, I am pretty confidence that most people listening don't. Can you explain what that means?
Alvin: Non recourse debt means that I have no personal liability to that deal. What are the bad boy carve outs? As long as there's no fraud, there is no intent to de-fraud, as long as all the rent is collected from that deal go to that deal and I don't take them home, as long as we do everything-- do it right, there is no personal guarantee they are not going to ding my credit, they are not going to follow foreclosure on me if this deal goes sideways, none of that.
David: So non recourse, guys. Mike, do we have any non recourse deals?
David: What have you got to do to get into the non recourse lending game?
Alvin: It's all based on the project.
David: I would imagine it's a lot more common with these bigger deals than the loan I am looking to get next week for 86'000, right?
Alvin: Well-- but you have also weighed into a place where you got credibility, you have done this time and time again. You will get ot a place where if you payed a little higher rate you may not have any recourse, right? Or no personal liability. So it's just weigh in the balances.
David: So it's leverage got it.
Alvin: If you go to a traditional bank, a bank-- they are going to hold recourse, but their rates are going to be less. But, if you go to a multi family lender that is going to do along with Fanny May or Freddy Mack, those deals are typical non recourse except for those bad boy carve outs.
David: You ever do any FHA's on these big ones?
Alvin: I have, we just did one, just completed one last year and it was an amazing deal.
David: Yeah so I got a buddy I would love to connect you with. You don't have to use him, bu I think he would be a good connection for you. 250 million dollars being worked right now-- he specializes in FHA, what I love-- I know enough to be dangerous, but what I love about what he does is-- they are all non recourse as you mentioned. Additionally he can offer a forty year term on these FHA's, I am sure you're aware, which is-- for cash flow-- obviously that's not necessarily something that is going to be-- highly valued if you are trying to pay this off. But if you are looking for that cash flow play, that is a great product.
Alvin: We use 35 and 40 year, non recourse, the rates on those deals-- the last rate we got was .78.
David: Man, that is super cheap, that is way less than what I'm paying on a single family loan with a commercial bank.
Alvin: The highest one we did in January of this year we did it with Fanny and it was about four seven, something like that. It wasn't FHA but it was Fanny May. The only reason it's that long is because I did not do a floating rate, I did not do a fixed for ten years, thirty year amortization fixed for ten, then after ten-- I don't do any of that because I position these for long term.
David: Are you setting these up to where they are renewable versus balloon?
Alvin: Yes. I set them up to where it's straight amortization for 35-40 years.
David: No balloon at all then.
David: Is it a fixed rate the whole time?
Alvin: Fixed rate the whole time. You pay a premium on that--.
Alvin: At four seven eight, the premium was a quarter basis points, point two five. No big deal.
David: Yeah, no big deal at all.
Alvin: But I will say this, it locks you in-- there are some lock out periods because--.
David: We have tried to buy some properties with these people that have had these lock out periods-- or lock in I guess you maybe call it. Also a quick question, are there pre-payment penalties? It's a lever right? If you want a longer term, or a lower rate, I imagine some of these have that for a five or ten year period or something like that?
Alvin: That's exactly right, some of them-- it's a yield maintenance. If guys are going to take ten million dollars or two million dollars at 3.5 or 4%, he needs to know he is going to make some amount of money on his money for that period.
David: And not get it refied out 18 months later.
David: You are full of knowledge, man.
Alvin: Man, it's just been trial and error, I didn't go to school for this. We bumped out hears so many times. I don't have any hair left.
David: You look great.
Alvin: Yeah man, I am still learning everyday-- for ten years and I got it from a guy who worked on it for 15 years, because every deal is different. Every time you do it you find a new source of money, you want to make this model work for that one. We are evolving. Either you are learning and growing or you're dying.
David: I totally agree. Let's do a recap because I have a couple more question and I don't want to go too long or we are going to lose some of our audience here.
David: Essentially you are finding the deals very similar to how we've taught on our free course, FreeWholesaleCourse.com. You are leveraging brokers and agents which is like-- I think is awesome, because these are the people that are getting contacted by these motivated sellers. So you have to build those relationships which you've done, you are buying properties that need work, right? You are buying properties at a discount that allow you-- if you're not buying it at a discount it probably doesn't work I would imagine. With that being said, and not or, and if there is not a lot of value to add, it probably doesn't work either, right?
Alvin: It doesn't work for my strategy, our strategy is I have to be able to refinance these deals within 36-48 months max to be able to give my investors a return. So if I don't have enough value to add through either repairs, renovations, upgrades, our raising the rents or both, then it's not the deal for me. I am not parking money over here to clip coupons at 3% return.
David: 100%, got it. That makes perfect sense. Then what you're doing, you find the deal, you have no money set aside for that deal, which is just like Mike and I. We always just go find it right? Which is beautiful and I love that. Then you get your partners together and you structure it in a way that everybody benefits from, but you control, which is awesome.
Alvin: I'm a control freak, but somebody has to control the deal.
David: Somebody has to, because if nobody is managing it we all know what's going to happen with that. Let's talk about-- the example earlier, right? You got the 45 days, day one you go view it, the next 44 days or sooner you go raise the capital and boom you close. What the hell do you do next? No it's like, alright I have a deal on a property, grass is six feet high, roofs are leaking in that scenario. I have an extra 400 grand that I have raised and ready. I have a loan in place so basically I am leveraged up. It's good debt because-- it's not a risky leverage it's a good leverage, then what? You start fixing stuff, how does that work?
Alvin: First thing you do is introduce your team to the community of the residents, put out notices--.
David: Make it known that I'm the new owner, and I want to help, I am not going to do what they did.
Alvin: Well we don't never know that, but yes this is why we're here, we are the new owners of the property. We are going to be going through some extensive renovations whatever they are. This is what you can look forward to over the next twelve months.
David: I am sure you probably do leap frog too, right? Fix one then someone from the community will want it?
Alvin: It depends, it depends on the occupancy level. If you are at 98%, we ask them to bear with us, because we are going to come into your apartment and cover all your stuff, we are going to put it in the center of the room, we are going to paint it, texture it and fix all that. We are going to move it then put your carpet in, in about ten or twelve days depending on the time frame, you have your new apartment. We stagger that based on the renewal dates. Most of these dates have twelve month leases. So we are going to start 90 days out, so this is-- what? September, October? November, December? Everyone renewing in December will be able to start on September one, why? We are--.
David: To keep them, right?
Alvin: Well we have to let them know that in sixty days, your rent is going to go up after we finish. It gives us 30 days to get it done, then we are giving them 60 days notice that your rent is going to increase.
David: The way I see it, you are giving them value in advance. Letting you try the new product, and if you really want to move out over 100 or 150 dollar rent increase, find we will get it from the next guy.
Alvin: That's right.
David: I have never heard of anybody doing it that way, and it's brilliant, I love that.
Alvin: It costs too much to move them back and forth, now if you have 50% occupancy, we start on the vacants first, bring that group in, because that's where your immediate impact is going to be, you can take those to the max where you want to be, versus the residents you have to incrementally raise.
David: Right, okay. How long does it take, and obviously if you are dealing with 1600 units versus 100 it's going to be different. What do you shoot for, renovated in 18-24 months?
Alvin: We shoot to have them all done-- say we have a hundred units-- our goal is six to nine months done, then we-- these guys are in and out of an apartment-- well you know how quick it can be done. You have a three bedroom apartment, it's just inside walls. The goal is to get in and out of that unit in no more than ten days, in and our, two weeks top.
David: We need to speed up ours a little bit.
Mike: Single families are a different animal.
David: Different animal, right.
Alvin: We haven't touched the outside yet. We start with the roofs and we do that. The AC guys are really quick, they can change a [01:05:04.01 - inaudible] unit in half a day. So that's quick, in and out. The goal is to have that hundred units done in nine months, then we wait for a nine month stabilization. If you have a high occupancy, then after that nine months of renovations are done, you have most of your people who have renewed within that period, they are all on new leases, and now you can stabilize those new rents for the next 18 months. In two years we are ready to pull the trigger on the refinance.
David: That was my next question. I know you're busy, and you are probably ready to chew your arm off here with lunch and right now, I get it. You are buying them, you are giving them in distress, giving them a deal, fixing these ups. Ideally in a year then you stabilize for a year roughly, a little less. On the second year, year two, you are on this for two years, you are basically talking to your lenders at this point, because you want to A, pay back all of the investors, B, you are going to make money. Tell us how that works. If you are new to multi family guys, and you are listening to this, this is going to blow your mind.
Alvin: The goal is actually to raise the rent, stabilize the rents. Most lenders only look for a T3, that means they are looking at the trailing three months of financial history.
David: You essentially not only have two years, but roughly nine months of good history.
Alvin: When you get nine months of good history, they are seeing the trend that has gone up where the rents have increased. When you get to a stabilization point they want to see 90 days of stabilization. So all the rents are maxed out at 500 or 1000 or whatever they are for 90 days, there is no in and outs of moving somebody in just to get them on the books then move out. They watch that for 90 days. Once you're there we get an appraisal done. That appraisal is done based on the net operating income of our income minus expenses before debt services and taxes, your net operating income. That number has increased substantially over the last two years because you have incrementally gone up on each of those renewals 150 bucks a month, and two years later you have increased your income by $15'000 a month on a hundred units. That is $180'000 a year. That property that you bought that had $100'000 NOI, right? You just increased it by 100%.
Alvin: By going up $180'000. No you do the cap rate on that $280'000 divided by .065, your value on that deal you payed a million dollars for is 4.3 million.
David: Holy cow! That's crazy. One thing I want to highlight, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I could very easily be wrong. Whenever you're having your appraisals done on a single family huse, they are not typically using the income approach, they are basically looking at the comps in the area, they are looking at the condition and the quality, and they are comparing that property to the neighbor's houses and ones in the vicinity. When you're dealing with multis, obviously condition is going to have a factor in it, but they are using a different approach. They are using an income approach. So you are forcing appreciation by allowing-- or by charging more in rent. At the same time you are offering a better product too. It's not like you are doing anything bad here. But you are forcing appreciation by increasing these rents. It's very easy to have an equity play or an equity stake in a property, six figures even seven figures by doing this. Whereas when me and Mike go to get an appraisal, it's like-- if I put in granite versus veneer or whatever HomeDepo sells. Yeah the appraisal says it's nicer, but he's not going to give me a 10 of 20% higher value.
Alvin: That's correct. On the multi they are using an income approach, but it also does factor in comps. So I can't have a property that is in the south side of the bottoms, that we just-- raised the income up $180'000, right? So now we are at $280'000 NOI, they are going to look for comparable rentals. So what does the next property that was built in the 70's or 80's or whenever it was built, what are the size of the units. So they are looking at like kind in quality as much as possible to show that-- he's charging $500 rent, that is comparable with the property over here that's at 500, and now showing this is a [01:10:05.18 - inaudible] when everyone else is at 350. So they do use hat, but it's based on the income more than anything.
David: Hell yeah, I've got a couple more questions then we are going to wrap up, Alvin. I really appreciate it. Mike is like, come on Dave, let's stop.
Mike: We have wrap it up or we lose our listeners.
David: I've got two more. Alvin, so this is why I am so intrigued, this next question, with multis. The reason is, because A, you are using none of your money, right? You are getting the deal, you're syndicating, you are getting money from investors. They are in on the deal, they are getting a return, it's backed by real estate. Everything is very safe in my eyes. I don't lose sleep over this, and I'm sure you don't either, right? What the coolest part of all this is, whenever you go to do this refi, you pay these people back, then you pull money you, okay? That's cool and all. But what's even cooler is you don't have to pay taxes on that money.
Alvin: Because it's borrowed money.
David: Can you explain a little bit about that, then we are going to wrap up.
Alvin: I am not going to get that far into that, because I am not a tax guy, okay?
David: Sure. Just tell us, maybe give us an example then.
Alvin: Okay, so if you take a deal then sell it, right? So you got $100'000 and you go sell this house and you made $20'000 on it because your debt was only 80'000, you got $20'000, they charge that as capital gains, okay? On a refinance, if you refinance that property at $80'000, and you only have $50'000 debt, that $30'000 gap is not income. It is borrowed money.
David: Because you owe it. When you pull it out, it increases what you owe, but it's not necessarily increasing the ratio of the value to the debt, right?
Alvin: I don't know--.
David: Maybe I worded that wrong. Essentially you are pulling money out that you owe. It's not profit, it's not income.
Alvin: That's correct, it's not profit, because you have to pay it back, but you don't have anybody to pay right now. So you put that money in your pocket. I am not going to tell you what to do, how you report it on your tax, I am not going to tell you that. But, I have seen my partners take that money, and now you have $30'000 you can go an reinvest in another deal. You are taking money from here that I just made that you are-- it's not reported to anybody on a 10-99, it is not reported on a 10-40. You're not getting the 10-99 for it. You're going to get a bill for that, because it's money from borrowed money. You have a mortgage to pay back. But, that money is sitting in your bank account, what are you going to do with it?
David: You've got to do something with it. You need to invest it. Alvin, thank you so much for coming on the show. The very first thing we talked about was serving, and I want to serve you. Tell us what you are looking for, and where. If you are an agent or a broker, or even a property owner that might have something Alvin is interested in, I want to connect you guys, alright? My mission here today is to learn but also to serve. I want to help Alvin grow his business as well. So Alvin, what are you looking for? What is the home run deals? How would someone reach out to you if they had it or knew of one?
Alvin: Okay, a hundred units minimum, geography, let's look at--.
David: You live in Dallas, ideally close. But you are open to a deal basically?
Alvin: Not really focused on Texas at all, we are focused on North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Illinois, Indiana.
David: You got a lot of States then.
Alvin: Those are the States that we are focused on. There are some tax advantages here for us. As 501C3 we don't pay property taxes in those States. When you take $200'000 off of a deal that you are not paying out in property taxes, that increases that NOI, increases that cap rate which allows me to pay my partners more money. So we are looking at a hundred units. We are looking at anything started at a seven cap, I will look at that, so 7% cap rate or higher, 7, 10, 12. We love that.
David: You shoot for 9.5 though? But you will look at the 7's or the 8's?
Alvin: That is correct.
David: It it's a 9.5--.
Alvin: It's almost automatic.
David: Yeah it qualifies to do more due diligence at that point.
Alvin: Right off the bat.
David: There are the brokers, the agents, the people out there that might have a deal in the States you mentioned that meet that criteria. Maybe you have more criteria, how do they reach out to you? I don't want-- I want to try and do what I can to drive traffic your way to get you more deals.
Alvin: Thank you David, there are three ways to contact me. My e-mail is [email protected] Facebook, Alvin Hope Johnson, Instagram, @AlvinHopeJohnson. LinkedIn, Alvin Hope Johnson. Smoke Signal, Alvin Hope Johnson. You name it, Alvin Hope Johnson. Anything, [email protected] Or Alvin Hope Johnson on socials.
David: At this time, Alvin, you're not doing-- offering a coaching program or a course. You said you may do it down the road. I also want to kind of reiterate guys, if you are new to this. Alvin is a busy guy, he's a friend, he is not looking to get a hundred e-mails on how to do this, that's what this podcast is for. The reason I wanted to give our his personal information is to help him grow his business. So please don't reach out to him to waste his time. He is not looking to do that today. Today he is looking for a deal. So if you come across a deal that meets his criteria reach out. Alvin, anything you want to end with, man?
Alvin: One more thing then I will end it. Also syndication, if anybody is interested in passively investing in real estate, where you can make anywhere from 8-30% return on investments, if you know anybody, have your lawyers contact me, have your investment guys contact me. I will plug my people with your people and we can get them together. Lastly, David, Mike, thank you guys for the platform, thank you for all you're doing for people who are trying to figure it out. You have no idea how much knowledge means. So the stuff you guys are doing for free, giving it away. Your dreams are going to happen because of what you are doing for other people.
David: Thank you. We appreciate you.
Mike: Yeah, man. It was really nice to meet you.
Mike: Good content, I hope everyone is enjoying it.
David: Couple of quick lessons to take away from this guys. Consistent persistent action, okay? We all didn't know what we were doing when we started, so you have to get out there, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Again, if you are looking for information on wholesaling, Mike and I have a free course, it is located at FreeWholesaleCourse.com. The easiest name to remember. We just published a book a couple of months ago as well, it is a companion book to the course, it is available on Amazon, you can find that typing in either of our names, or just searching for 'The ultimate guide to wholesaling real estate'. Alvin, thank you so much for coming on the show. I know I've learned a lot , a tremendous amount of value for all of our listeners and viewers. Last words, Mike?
Mike: Thank you so much Alvin, it was a pleasure.
Alvin: Thank you, Mike. I hope to see you in Tulum Mike.
Mike: We will be there.
David: Alright guys, we are signing off. We will see you next time.