In this episode, David Dodge interview John Martinez they talk about Sales. To learn more about John Martinez go to https://midwestrev.com/podcasts-page/
]David: Alright guys, welcome back to the Discount Property Investor podcast. I am your host David Dodge coming to you today! Today I have Mr. John Martinez today from the REI Sales Academy, welcome, John.
John: Hey, good to be here.
David: Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate you and-- I am grateful for your time, John. A little bit about John, and it's going to be a little bit, because I don't know a whole lot about John. I am looking forward to learning more about what John is doing with his sales program. However, I have heard John's name a hundred times over the last four or five years that I have been doing real estate full time and investing. I have heard nothing but good things about his sales program. Just all the things he had been out there offering to people. I am very excited, probably more excited than most of you listening, but that's okay. So again, welcome John. John tell us a little bit about what you are up to these days.
John: Yeah so the last four or five years I have been pretty laser focused on sales training and REI space. It's all we do, it's all we've done for years. Before that I was in sales training for all types of different businesses and industries. Before that I spent about-- oh shoot-- 15 years basically growing and building sales teams for different organisations across the country. My whole background, everything I've ever done in sales-- but we have been focused in on REI the last five or six years or so.
David: Okay very cool. In terms of what you have been focussing on the past four of five years, let's hear more about that. That's what interests me. So you obviously have tons of experience in sales and your reputation proceeds you. Let's hear a little bit about the real estate side of things.
John: The real estate side of things is really cool. It's probably one of the toughest sales out there. I have trained in all kinds of industries and it's tough. But it's a really cool sale. Most investors when they get into investing, what I've learned, we have probably got 1400-1500 involved in our program right now. I see a lot of businesses, seeing a side of them, talked to a lot of investors. They get into investing wanting to get into real estate, then realize shoot, sales is a big thing about this, a big piece of it. It's even hard to fathom once I get into it, because I'm like, why am I having to sell? I am cutting the check, right? It seems opposite as you are the one paying. But-- you know, you mentioned something when I got on here, right before I think you started recording, you said, well the money is made on the buy, then you get paid on the sale. I believe that 100%.
David: That's our motto here John. Discount Property Investor podcast, you make your money when you buy, you get paid when you sell. But the money is made on the purchase. I feel like the message that you have aligns very closely with what we have been teaching our audience.
John: Yeah, I truly believe it is what you buy for. I think it is more important today than every regardless of exit strategy. Most people are training wholesalers, but there is a variety-- regardless of whatever your exit strategy is, it's tougher than ever because you have tons and tons of investors. We used to work in markets where like-- these are competitive, and these are not so competitive. Now everywhere is competitive. There are investors in on every deal, some have I-buyers involved as well. Some are struggling with-- leads are getting more and more expensive with RVM's and stuff like that. Everyone has access to the same list, competing for the same leads. So I think more probably the last 12-18 months than when I got in five or six years ago, the money is made on the buy, but not only is the money made on the buy talking about-- speaking on terms of having to buy at a deep discount, it's-- you have got to just buy. It's like-- you're up against everybody now, and not only do you have to get the right price so you make a good margin, but you have just got to get it. There are going to be people offering ore, there are going to be people who got to them before you. I think it's more important than ever that investor's get that piece locked in on their business.
David: I couldn't agree more John, 100%. If you can't, I tell this a lot to my students as well. You can't wholesale something, or even flip something if you don't have it right. You have to have an inventory to even offer to sell something to make a profit. Locking up properties and getting out there and doing that is so important.
Teach us today, please, teach us a couple of things that we can take away from this episode that will help us convert more deals, or do more deals, or help get us more sales in our businesses. So I know-- I'm a student for life, I love to learn new things. I take in as much as I can about real estate, and negotiating, and all types of things. Our business is doing pretty good, we are doing anywhere between eight and ten wholesales a month. I would love to take it to 15 or 20. So what would be some tips and tricks that would would recommend not only to me but that the audience could take away with them as well?
John: Perfect, I think we are aligning perfectly. Our average customer starts out right about where you are now. Our larger customers are-- we are working with two hedge funds now that are buying, they are doing about three thousand deals a year. Scaling-- that's what we do, we train those acquisition agents, usually going from a few deals a month to ten to twelve, then up from there. I am just going to give you the best tips really that we give those teams.
John: It is usually really tough at this point, I am going to start high level then drill down and just give some actionable simple stuff that will increase conversion rates immediately. No BS like do these things and you will get more deals type stuff.
John: There is a point-- and you probably see it with your coaching, when the investor tries to back out, and replace themselves on the acquisition side, what we hear and see all the time is the investors can buy, they know how to because they kind of-- just trial by fire type stuff, they have been on so many seller appointments, they figure it out, right? They can go in there and go by feel I get enough deals to keep the business running. But as soon as they take themselves out and they start to try and train somebody else, there seems to be this disconnect. I know how to do it, I have learned to do it over two or three years, and it's kind of by feel, right. They go this way and I say this. I bring these up at this time because of this. It's a gut feel. When it comes teaching somebody else, I can't teach that gut feel, right? There is this disconnect, that's usually what we hear at that point. The struggle to train the acquisition agency. When we get in, the first few things we teach that are going to make a massive amount of difference is number one, ending the call. Most newer acquisition agents or newer investors, when a sales call ends, when they make their offer, the most common thing they hear is some form of maybe or think it over, right? Rarely ever hear no. They are not like, no get out of my house. It happens but it is not the most common. The most common is, let me talk to this person, let me think it over, I have other investors coming in, I am ging to get some other offers, let me talk to my wife. It is some form of delay, right?
David: Yep, and it is typically the case, I totally agree.
John: Yeah, so one real good actionable thing you can use right now that is going to turn more of those maybe's and think it over's into deals is just to-- stop accepting those delays. I will break it down and give scripting and everything so people can literally take this and run with it.
David: Awesome. Again, we appreciate you coming on and sharing some of these gold nuggets with us today, buddy.
John: Yeah I love to. I enjoy it. If you get some type of maybe or think it over, you just think about when you give them to sales people, it happens for a few reasons. Number one, it might just be a no, right? I can't count the number of sales situations I've been in where-- yeah I like the sales person, I didn't want to let them down, or I just didn't want to get beat up with objection handlers and stuff where it's a no. Let me think about it and I will get back to you, right? Sometimes when you get those, maybe you will think it over, it's a no. Let's break this down. Number--
David: Totally agree, sometimes it's a no.
John: They just haven't share that with you yet. Number two is-- there is just something else they have to figure out. Where am I going to go? How am I going to get there? What's this person going to say? We call them deal killers, most commonly known as objections But there is some stuff that people are worried about. The risk, the discomfort of the whole process. They have to figure out-- these deal killers. There are questions they have to figure out before they can make a decision one way or another. So it truly is a maybe, and there are some factors why. The third reason you might get held off and not get an answer is that it is a yes, they feel good, they would accept it, but they don't have to yet. They don't have to give an answer yet. If we just think about-- in our lives, big decisions we make like-- who we are getting married to, buying and selling a house, the purchase of a car or appliance, something large. We don't usually have those options then just immediately jump and make a decision. We have really big decisions to make. Most people about there, truly have to make that decision right? You're not like, oh it's time for me to buy a house, I am looking at two and drop the hammed in one right. I'm going to take my time, when I absolutely have to do it I will make the decision. So knowing that people don't make large decisions until they have to-- they just don;t have to yet. So they are going to sit pretty and they are going to hold on until they have to. So now we know, okay why are we getting maybe's or thin it over's, there's a maybe, there's a yes and there is a no. Alright, so when you stop accepting maybe's and think it over's, that truth is going to come out.
I am going to give you some scripting right now, just how we do it--.
David: So you're saying there are only those three scenarios? It's always going to be a no, something they need to figure out, or it's yes but they don't have to, and obviously there's a yes. So there's four. Am I missing anything?
John: No, yes, and then I need more information before I can give you an answer one way or the other.
David: Got it, okay cool.
John: It could go either way, but there are just some missing pieces that they need before they can tell you yes or no, before they can figure out for themselves.
David: Cool. The goal would be to quit accepting the people that are either not a yes or a no and they are in the middle, right?
John: Right, I mean-- here's what happens if you stop accepting maybe's and think it over's. I will give you all the scripting and stuff in just a sec.
John: If you put your foot and and say, if it's not a yes it's a no basically in a nice gentle, nurturing way. One of three things happens; if it is no, you are going to give them permission to tell you no. If it is a no, we want to know. Why walk out of there blind? If you know what it is, if you know it's a no, you know what to do with it, okay? Am I going to keep working on it? Am I going to dig in further? Am I going to put them in my follow up campaign? Am I just going to accept that it's a no and move on? No. If you don't know when you actually have a no, what happens is you end up with these never ending follow ups. You are in the business for six months then you have a thousand people you're following up with. You can't follow up with them all, so you're not following up with them all. It doesn't work. So if it is a no, I don't know any investors that don't want to know, just tell me the truth; if it's a no let me know, then I know how to proceed or not proceed.
David: That's a good point, John. Let me pause you right there.
John: Go ahead.
David: Because this is ringing really true. I have 5543 active in my CRM that-- are in the followup status. I love it, it rings so true. Now, our average deal is about four months.
David: From our initial contact to the time we get it under contract to then wholesale at a purchase.
David: The followup game there is a lot of power there.
David: However, knowing from the get go on what to allocate your resources to is very powerful too. I am agreeing with you is what I'm getting at. You are absolutely right. There is a lot of people in there that didn't give me a yes or a no from the beginning, and now they are just getting followed up with. And as you mentioned, that's a lot. Once you get to a thousand, that's a full time job. I don't do that anymore, but I have a virtual assistant that does. I've had to go and bring staff on just to work that without dropping the ball. So Amen, brother.
John: Take that step further. If you know which ones are no's, again you have more information, but you acqusition agents, when you start to scale you only have so much time, right? They should be following up with 10, 15, 20 people that are the hottest deals. If they can only follow up with so many before it is handed off to an automated system or a lead manager or something like that, you want them following up with the hottest leads, right? If half the leads they are following up with-- they have the skill set to close the deals, right? They are the best at doing it. You don't want half of those, or a third of those to already be no's and they just haven't said it yet. It's not a good use of your time.
John: When we look at the numbers, this makes follow up more effective, because if you don't have to push someone into a yes and they basically have to lie to you or push you out the door. When you do reach out to talk to them, they are going to be more apt to talk to you, right?
David: Oh yeah, I don't know if you are familiar with Steve Trang, but he has a really great analogy. He's like, once you make an offer somebody and they give you a no, you get unlimited access to their voice mail, unlimited, you know? But the odds of them answering the phone for you moving forward are going to be very low. That has stuck with me from a podcast I did with him a while back, great guy. It rings so true to your message.
John: It's the same reason none of us answer calls from sales people. You gave me all the information, I know what the offer is. The only thing you want to do is overcome some objections or push me into something, no I'm not picking up the phone. I have the info.
David: I've got the info, right. If I need you I will contact you.
John: Yeah when you gave them the no, it increases your odds of following up correctly and actually getting a hold of them again. The other thing we see is-- we started working-- we have a lot of data around companies-- we have some companies that are getting deals two three years in the follow up campaign, but what we found is that they have been able to close a lot more deals on the first call that they would--.
David: Wouldn't have to wait two or three years.
John: They get it quicker. Same deal comes in, but they get it now instead of later. Also decreases the chances of other investors getting the deal. We would be lying to ourselves if we said that-- well no, every deal I don't get, nobody gets. Every investor if they are following their pipeline, they know that I didn't get it, someone else picked it up, right? That happens all the time. The quicker we can close the better it is, and not rely so much on-- we have to use follow up but we can't rely on it, because we will lose a lot of deals in the mean time.
John: Getting the no is the first thing that can happen when we stop accepting them.
David: What do you mean you give them permission? You mentioned that earlier.
John: I will just go into the scripting now. "Dave, listen, man. You shared a lot with me, this is a massive decision, there are a lot of moving pieces to it. I totally get why you need some time to think about it. That being said, listen, everything we talked about, every reason why you are considering this-- everything you want to accomplish, every reason-- why you might not move forward. Everything that you are kind of hung up and and trying to think through, everything we talked about. If after all of that, you are still not confident that this is the way to go, man, I think we just need to call it what it is, this is a no, I just don't think we have a fit. We are in the business of buying houses, but I see a lot of people, I don't buy every single house. I am looking for it to be perfect for you, and perfect for me. When we have that match we buy. Right now I don't think we have a match, so I think we just need to call it what it is. I hope I am not offending you, but it sounds like at least for right now it needs to be a no, right?" So that's a very soft way of making it a no. So what happens is, if it is a no, now you have given them the affirmation to say, you know what? That's what I'm feeling, I don't think we've got a fit here. So we have taken the pressure off, right?
John: We are not going to beat them up for a yes. But the other two things that will happen is that if it is a yes, right? When we go through the sales process we talk about how to increase the motivation and urgency to take action, systematically like pull out all those objections and deal killers and deal with them. So we do all that up front. It is just at the very end of the sales call. So if you do that effectively, there are going to be some where they really want to take action, and this is their time to make a decision, right? We have actually given a time, hey it's time to go one way or the other, no pressure if it's a no totally cool, but I got to go make offers on other houses.
David: I feel like it's a subtle way to push rather than being pulled.
John: That's it.
David: -- a real high level look down on just the emotional aspect of the sale itself-- it's more along the lines of-- I want to make this a win win, but it has to be a good win for me. Therefore here's where I'm at, and if it doesn't work for you, then I get it, you know? But I have to go make offers on other houses. If you don't want this offer I need to know, because I need to allocate the same resources that I had put into your bucket into a different one.
John: And it's cool. For a lot of people that's their time to make a decision. If you've done everything right, and the motivation is there, you will often hear something like, you know what? I've been dealing with this long enough, I'm tired of it, let's just do it, because it's just time to make a decision. Now the third thing that can happen is they don't want to let you go, right? But there are some things they still need to figure out. This is why are they put them out on the table, and that usually sounds like-- 9 times out 10 it sounds like, no I'm not saying no, I just don't know how, I don't know if, I don't know how-- and now we can start to address those things, right? It doesn't mean we're going to get the deal. But at least now we know their decision criteria, what they're thinking about, and we have some more information. We can say, in some cases it's, no leave everything behind, we will clean it up, it's not a big deal. Maybe some cases we can't do anything about it. But the point is, now we know. We are just looking at increasing our chances of closing closeable deals. So we always go for-- we live for anything other than a yes, whatever it sounds like-- that's a no. When you get a no, you put it out on the table and say, it's a no, and that's okay. Again, those are the only three things that happen; you get a yes, a no, or you figure out what that decisions criteria is that you didn't know before and you can walk through it. All three of those things are good for an investor sales person.
David: I think that's amazing. If it's a no, that's okay, but we have labeled it as a no, which is awesome. At that point if the decision is in their court-- you're essentially forcing them to make a decision indirectly. I think it's beautiful. That's a great gold nugget, John. Thank you for sharing that. I absolutely love it.
John: One more thing if I can just add on for a second.
David: Absolutely you can.
John: When I got into this industry I spent my first year going and buying houses. I went coast to coast; California, Mexico, Pennsylvania. When our training started, it's online now, but what I do is fly out, and hope in the car with acquisition agents, go buy a bunch of houses, then we flip rolls, then I would kind of give them some tips afterward. I bought a lot of houses, been in there buying them. For about six months I bought locally, Springfield Missouri where I am, partner with an investor, they did all the marketing. I walked in, locked up a house, recorded the call for training, then he dispositioned it.
David: Man, I'm in St Louis, I didn't even realize you were in my State, that's awesome.
John: Yeah, man, I'm in Springfield. So-- when we started doing that. I will tell you that a majority of the deals that I got came after that point in the sales call. All pressure was relieved. I get that no, and I started going for that no really quick. I get to the point and they say, yeah I don't know, probably not. I just say, listen not that it's over, what in the world do you think you're gonna do? Reality hits, right? Now they have permission to really speak freely. I am not longer a sales person, because I have taken my deal off the table, then you are right back into it-- I don't know, you are back into the conversation, right? A majority of my deals came at that point where we gave them a no, and then just said, listen, now that it's over, what are you going to do? It's just this-- I don't know. We jump right back into it, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or they tell you a plan and you can say, okay well, I've heard that a hundred times, and what happens is people try to do that, and then in three to six months they call me back. If you want to go do that, that's great, but I would hate for you to waste all that time and money when in the end it will probably be-- yeah that's great, John, I love that.
One of my favorite things to do, and I'm sure you teach this as well, if you are out on an appointment, talking to someone on the phone, and you are trying to get their why. That's what we are in the business of doing, we are buying a discount, we are trading convenience for a discount. That is really all a wholesaler does. We provide liquidity to the market place, and we trade convenience for a discount. Basically one of the things you should be asking your seller lead, the seller on the phone or in person is, why do you want to sell? What is your reason for selling? Sometimes you will get push back. It's kind of rare, at least for me it is. Most of the time when I ask that question I get a direct answer. Other times, they push back and say, it's not really your business. You can always find out what the why by asking the when. The when reveals the why, I love this.
David: If they say, okay that's not problem, or I said, it's not problem, let's move on. They start talking about the house, and you just get into-- well okay Mr. or Mrs. Seller, when do you need to close? I have a couple of other deals that I am working on right now. If they say, oh I need this closed in like two weeks or less. Oh okay, two weeks or less, yeah that might be a challenge-- could we do it in three weeks? Or is there a reason you have to have it in two weeks? Yeah it's because i'm going to jail next Thursday. Okay boom, there's your why. The when reveals the why, and always ask why, but if they won't tell you the why, ask the when. That has worked really well for me to get people to give up their why. After you have their why, then you can go to their needs. What are your needs? I don't care what people want, I am not trying to sound like a DICK in this scenario, but I am here to provide a level of convenience to you. If you are not willing to trade me the same level of a discount on deal, then I am going to take my convenience elsewhere. I think our messages align very-- straight forward.
John: I think-- the why is important. I nerd out on this stuff, so with neuro science and neuro economics, the way decisions are made-- they start in the brain it's in the emotional core of the brain. Again, I can nerd out easily but I'm not, but the why is important. The more you talk about the why, it actually increases someone's urgency to take action. The more you talk about it, the more likely they are to make a decision moving forward. That's one reason why it's super important. Another reason it is super important, is because when you get deeper into their why, and the deeper you get into it, when you make your offer, the best investors will talk about their offer, they will explain their offer in terms of helping them meet their why. Quick example, instead of saying I can give you 65'000 and we can close in 14-30 days, that is one way maybe-- someone just starting out would make their offer. If you know their why, then the offer starts to sound like, listen man, I know you have to be out of here in two weeks, so the way I want to structure my offer is we can do this as quickly as seven days, so we can hit that window. But, I also know the more and more we talk, you were afraid you were going to be stuck in-between places, and not have the cash or time to get into somewhere quick enough and kind of be stuck in the middle. That's why you haven't done anything like this before. What I want to do, I'm going to structure so we can buy and sell as quick as seven days, we can really span that out as long as 30, and because of that too-- listen, you're not going to get payed until we close on a house, but what we can is I can write up in the contract that when title clears we can give you $500 so you can get into your new place. What we're doing is hitting their motivations, and just-- it's the same offer, but the more you know about their motivation, the more you can connect the dots with them, and the more appealing the offer is.
David: Right, yeah, you can build the offer around their needs or wants-- even if it's a lower offer, the terms align more with what their goals are, it's going to be a better more appealing offer. I think that's great. John, very very cool. John, I like to keep my episodes short so people can digest them and not go too long. If you guys are not familiar with John, check him out online: The REI Sales Academy is-- that's his baby, right?
John: Yeah, that's my baby.
David: That's his baby, I love it. You can find it at MidWestRev.com. Check out John on social media. I have been following John on Instagram lately, putting out some good content, John, thank you so much. We are going to definitely be bringing John back on the show here soon. John, any parting words for the audience? Any tips or tricks you would like to share with us today?
John: One more quick one I guess, because you kind of hit on it. You don't get a lot of push back when you start with the why. The most effective-- which is good. Some people do, and I think the most effective way to ask-- your strategy is great going onto the when. The way-- the one we have seen the most success with is by going into the why with-- not a straight question, why are you looking to sell? But kind of in disbelieve, saying something good about the situation or the home, then not understanding why, and there is always something good you can say about the house. "Listen man, you have lived here 25 years, lots of memories. Why on the world would you consider selling now?" Or, "this neighborhood is an up and coming neighborhood, everybody loves it, it's beautiful, why in the world would you think about selling now?" "You just put a year into rehabbing this place, the kitchen is beautiful. I know it's not done but you put a ton of work into it, why in the world would you even consider selling at this point?" When you go after it with that kind of--.
David: You're approaching with empathy for them. They are going to return it.
John: You are more likely to get an answer and a real answer.
David: I think that's great. A lot of people trying to mirror their person. This is an indirect way to get them to mirror you. You go in with an empathy approach and you are going to get that in return. That is brilliant as well. I love it. Very cool. John, thank you so much for your time today, I am ultra grateful, I know my audience is grateful. Guys don't forget, you make your money when you buy, you get paid when you sell. Don't forget to check out John's REI Sales Academy at MidWestRev.com. With that, we are going to be signing off. John, thanks again, we will talk to you soon and we are going to be bringing you back.