Real Estate Blog & Podcast

Episode 284: Mitch Stephens - Live Comm Phone and SMS

brrrr method david dodge discount property investor michael slane podcast real estate 101 real estate coaching real estate investing real estate investor real estate tips wholesaling wholesaling real estate Sep 23, 2022

Show Notes

Welcome back to another episode of the Discount Property Investor Podcast. Today’s episode is specifically for all listeners and viewers that are interested in the BRRR Method. David Dodge invited a special guest, Brian Dally from Ground Floor Lending. Brian and David talk about this product that can help investors anywhere in the United States get into the deal with the financing aspect. Listen to this episode and connect with Brian Dally.

Things that will cover in this episode:

  • Ground Floor Lending
    • How it started?
    • Crowdfunding
    • Cost
    • Points
    • Time frame

Service Mentioned:

Transcript Episode:

Welcome back to the Discount Property Investor podcast. Our mission is to share what we have learned from our experience and the experience of others to help you make more money investing like a pro. We want to teach you how to create wealth by investing in real estate, the discount property investor way. To jumpstart your real estate investing career, visit, the most complete free course on wholesaling real estate ever. Thanks for tuning in.

David: All right guys, welcome back to the discount property investor podcast. I am your host David Dodge. My co-host Mike Slane is home for the evening. It's already 5:00 o'clock in the evening, but I wanted to jump on and do a podcast specifically for all of my listeners and viewers that are interested in the BRRRR method, all right. I have on a special guest today, Brian Dally and Brian is from Groundfloor, and Brian's going to tell us a little bit about this product that he has that can help investors basically anywhere in the United States get into the deal with the financing aspect of things. So Brian, welcome to the show. How are you today man?

Brian: Good to be with you David, I'm great. Thanks for having me.

David: Awesome. Hey, thanks for coming on man. So before we started this episode, I was chatting with Brian a little bit about Ground Floor, and I knew a little bit about it but I didn't know a ton but what he was telling me so far, really, really spiked my interest because I'm always talking to students, I'm always talking to other investors that you know, are wanting to do similar to me in terms of the BRRRR method. They're wanting to you know, start building that portfolio and they may have- maybe already have a little bit of private money or a little bit of hard money but they're not really sure about the entire process and I was telling Brian, I said you know one of the things that is really missing you know, is somebody that is nationwide and he said, well hey we got you covered with that. That's awesome. So you guys are in like 49 states essentially, it's basically everywhere.

Brian: Roughly, yeah it's about 40- 40 some odd states. Yeah.

David: Yeah, 40 some odd states. Okay. Awesome man, that's really cool. So, Brian tell us about Groundfloor. How did you get involved with it as well? Curious.

Brian: Back in 2012, Congress passed an act known as the Jobs Act, some people may have heard of it. People were excited about it for a lot of reasons. One reason is that it allowed for crowdfunding, you know, equity crowdfunding instead of participating in a crowdfunding campaign where you, you know, you might get a t-shirt, you know, but you don't own the underlying company that made the product. Congress made it legal in 2012 with the Jobs Act so that everybody could invest the way that the wealthy invested. The wealthy invest in private deals, right? They buy Securities and pre-IPO Companies and they make hard money loans on a fractional basis. They can participate in vehicles that we don't get access to the rest of us and that changed in 2012. My co-founder Nick Bhargava helped work on that legislation. We met because I've been an investor since age 15 and I was interested in this world. I was interested in this world of how investing would change for the rest of us. We ended up coming together and creating a product that allows individual investors to invest in real estate loans that we make to investors $10 at a time so that just like your friendly neighborhood hedge fund, you can build a portfolio of hundreds and thousands of loans even if you only have a thousand or a couple thousand dollars to play with. That's really valuable because those of you who have borrowed from hard money, you know, these loans can pay out 8, 10, 12 percent, they usually pay back in about 9 months and these investors are getting the security of a first lien position. So that's the company we started. We started to create this investment product. We became a very active lender because of that and we're a lender with a very unique loan product that I think a lot of your interest- your listeners might find interesting. I mean, for sure you're all welcome to invest in the loans yourself. If you're stacking up capital waiting for your next deal, that's a great place to earn a great return or if you're thinking about going into private lending yourself, that's a great way to do it, but I think people will be really interested to hear about the credit product that we've created as a function of that capital market.

David: Let's hear it, this is cool. So wait hold on, let me recap.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So you can invest with only $10 if you are wanting to put money to work.

Brian: Correct.

David: Minimum of $10, that's cool right? I would imagine that there's- is there a cap?

Brian: No.

David: No cap, okay. And-

Brian: No cap.

David: Um so that's when you-

Brian: We have loans all over the country, hundreds of loans a month all over the country.

David: Hundreds of loans all over the country, very, very cool. It's similar to like or Lending Club, except for those products would be not backed with the security of a first lien, right?

Brian: Correct.

David: Maybe a little higher rate on those but-

Brian: Potentially.

David: I've-

Brian: A lot higher losses of course.

David: Yeah, I've lost money on both platforms actually and was like, you know what? If I gave my 18 months-

Brian: What am I doing?

David: Or 36 months or yeah, I'd probably be all right but I was just like, when I saw all these big rates and I'm like, cool.

Brian: Yeah.

David: And then they don't pay their credit card off and they go into default, so on so forth. So the fact that you have a first lien is awesome, but that's only a small piece of it. That's just on the investment side of you know.

Brian: Correct.

David: You being the lender. The credit side is the people that are applying for these loans.

Brian: Right.

David: And then you guys are crowdfunding the capital.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So tell us about that, that's awesome.

Brian: So we fund a hundred loans or more a month. You know, I think last month we did 26 million dollars in loans over a hundred loans. We're lending all over the country. What's unique about our product, it's special because of where we're getting the capital. If you're new to this game or if you haven't been burned in this game yet, you have to know that the source of your capital, it's like the source of your food, the source of your capital really matters. Where is that capital coming from? Who's writing the check? What are the terms and conditions of that money that you're getting? Most people are just so psyched to have the capital, they lose sight of you know, what's actually in the capital, what's in the documents.

David: Yeah, right.

Brian: And what power do they have over you, right? That's the thing. What power do they have over you? What are you truly paying? What are the hidden costs? I'm not talking about the financial cost, I'm talking about the types of costs to keep you up at night, right? That make you worry you're going to lose your equity. We have a product that is- because we look like a public company. We offer an investment product that is you know, qualified by the Securities and Exchange Commission, therefore you can go see all of our lending criteria, we never deviate from it so we're a rules-based lender. You know what it takes to get a loan from us. We have a lot of-

David: You're qualified by the SEC, is that right?

Brian: We're SEC qualified to offer this investment product.

David: And they're essentially probably doing audits on you guys throughout the year.

Brian: We do annual financial audits just like a public company does so you can read about our finances all you want. There's a 173 pages of disclosure about our company on file.

David: Yeah, can't wait to dive in. But it's out there, yes.

Brian: Go for it. It's out there.

David: Right right.

Brian: But the reason that matters to you as an investor is you know where your capital is coming from, you know what strings are attached to it and because we're sourcing our capital that way, we can do some pretty unique things. For example, whoever heard of a loan that you can get that you don't have to make a monthly payment on? That's us, no monthly payment. You get a BRRRR loan-

David: Now, on every loan or certain types of loans that you offer?

Brian: Every loan.

David: Every loan, no monthly payment.

Brian: No monthly payment. You want to come to us, you want to get a BRRRR loan, you want to do your BRRRR deal? We look at it- look, if you watch Shark Tank, and who doesn't watch Shark Tank?

David: That's right.

Brian: You gotta watch Shark Tank. You got Mr. Wonderful and you got Mark Cuban, right? What does Mr. Wonderful always want? He wants a royalty, and what does Cuban say? Don't do it, don't take the royalty. Why does he say that? Because the cash shouldn't be bleeding out of the business to Mr. Wonderful, the cash should be in the business growing the business.

David: Right.

Brian: We feel the same way. The cash should be going to the collateral. That's what we like as the lender or should be going into your next deal, right? That's where the cash should be going. We don't need the cash during the term of the loan so that's a big difference. We roll closing costs into our loans. So hard money loans often come with a lot of costs and fees, that's just life, right? You got to pay those fees in order to have the money and hopefully it's worth it. It's better than getting an equity partner for sure. It's hell of a lot cheaper than that.

David: Yeah.

Brian: But we'll roll those points and fees into the loan balance for you. We'll own you 90% of the cost of your project and if you're experienced, if you've done 8 or more transactions in the last couple of years, you show us your experience level, we'll loan you a hundred percent of the cost. Where are you going to get that? Most- you just not, you're not going to get it, right? And the-

David: When you say cost, you're talking purchase and rehab?

Brian: Yes I am.

David: Wow, okay. Now is there- so when you when you say that though, you- I would assume as an investor that's done, you know, 800 transactions over the last 7 years that you would have to have a discounted purchase to be able to get a hundred percent loan even with experience, right?

Brian: Oh, we like- we like to see the guys that buy it right, you know?

David: Right, okay.

Brian: We love the guys that buy it right, but the guys who are experienced are buying it right.

David: Yeah absolutely.

Brian: They know how to buy it right. They know how to spot the value.

David: Yeah, if you have anymore transactions and you've screwed up 7 times already and you're still here,  you're probably lendable.

Brian: Yeah, we know.

David: Just because you're- you keep coming back.

Brian: We have programs for the new guys, but we also have programs we cover the whole gambit.

David: I like it.

Brian: You know if you look at our platform, you can invest in grade A loans which are from really experienced guys who are putting a bunch of cash in the deal, they're fine, maybe they have a-

David: You have guys who's on the platform to syndicate big multifamily apartment complexes and stuff?

Brian: We don't do that, we stick with residential 1 to- SFR 1 to 4 units. We'll do like an 8 door or a 12 door deal from now- now and again but we don't really venture into multifamily. We stay right in our lane, we know where it is. We'll do new construction, we'll do fix and flip, we'll do BRRRR loans. We're happy doing all of that. We don't really venture into the multifamily arena today.

David: Cool. Sure. Cool. No, I was just checking. Absolutely.

Brian: Yeah.

David: And it doesn't matter, I was just curious. So you guys are focused on the residential mainly.

Brian: We are, yup.

David: Some small multis, right? But not the 60 unit or the 80 unit apartment complex.

Brian: Yeah, we're not going there.

David: Yeah, of course.

Brian: At least not today.

David: Sure.

Brian: I will say this: the larger our business gets, the more we can venture into that.

David: Oh of course.

Brian: We have a very large capital market, right? People are investing- I think our investors last months invested like I said, 26 million is what we originate. We're doing 20 to 30 million investment sales a month now, so we're getting to the point where we're large enough where we may start to venture into that territory. We'll keep you posted on that.

David: I love it man. But you guys do the fix and flips and the BRRRR's as well too. Now when you say-

Brian: And new construction. If your folks are doing new construction, we'll do that too.

David: And the new construction too, I love it man.

Brian: Yeah.

David: New constructions, cool I want to add that to the list here. When you're doing the BRRRR, you guys are helping out with the purchase and/or the rehab, and this is essentially short term, right?

Brian: Yeah. I mean we're bridging until you get your permanent financing, right? The permanent financing is going to want you to season it. You want to go do that permanent financing, we want you to go do that permanent financing. We're all aligned with you getting to the point where you're going to get that low interest, long term loan, amortizing loan. We're all going to give each other high fives when that happens, right? Because then you're in, you're locked in. You got the cash flow from the property, you know, you're through the riskiest part of it, life is good, right? And you can just move on to the next one. We want you to get cashed out, get levered up, get that thing going and go do your next one. We want to be there with you to do the next one.

David: I love it. Absolutely. Okay, cool. So let's talk about cost, let's talk about terms. You said earlier they can- they can turn around a profit, the investor side, so the guy that comes in and says hey I want to put in $10 or maybe $500 or maybe $50,000, and they want to use the platform to lend that money out, they can get you know, 8 or 10 or 12 percent.

Brian: Correct.

David: As you had mentioned. What is the cost on the other side? The flip side. If I wanted to come in-

Brian: It's the exact same.

David: Exact same.

Brian: Exact same. You get to choose. Now if you- most people that we serve know that you know, what matters is the capital more than the rate you pay for the capital, you know? Having the capital is the thing and so most people want to max out how much capital they can get, right? And if they do that, you know, they're probably going to end up paying- an experienced guy might end up paying 9, 10, 11 percent for his money, you know, on a 12-month loan. Most people are fine with that. It's- like I say, it's a hell of a lot better than getting somebody to split profits with you, right? It's much cheaper than that.

David: Now, when you say they're paying out 9 or 10 or 11 percent, and I agree 100%, those rates aren't bad at all, those actually are pretty really competitive.

Brian: Sure. Yeah, they're fine.

David: I'm not seeing the entire picture either but that's okay, we'll get to that.

Brian: Yes, we will.

David: The experienced guy ends up paying 9, 10 or 11 percent. Now, are you referring to the annualized?

Brian: Yeah, it's annualized.

David: Okay. It's not a simple interest, that's an annualized interest. So they're paying 9, 10, 11 percent.

Brian: Yeah, exactly. So if you get- if you get it done in 6 months, your interest cost us half. That's why most people you know, we work with a lot of very experienced, you know, renovators who will be done fixing and flipping you know, in six months or less, you know, so they may take even a shorter term and buy down the rate a little bit, the effective interest that they end up paying. The less time they need the money, the cheaper it is.

David: Yeah, absolutely and that's the deal. Whenever I'm borrowing money, I'm working extra hard on those projects that the money's borrowed on.

Brian: For sure.

David: Cuz every day, every minute, every hour is costing money, right? Or it's costing more money than that long-term financing.

Brian: You know, I actually- since I'm a- since I've been a tech entrepreneur for 25 years, I've learned that there's such a difference between sort of, in people in my line of work and real estate investors, it's been awesome, you know, to hire a bunch of real estate people and learn from them about how they think. As a tech entrepreneur, I think about growing the pie. I think about how can I take that money that I borrowed and create a project that's much more valuable, right? And I can extract a premium price because hey man, if I'm paying an extra month or two of interest, or I'm borrowing a little extra money, but it allows me to increase the selling price by 10, 20, 40 thousand dollars?

David: Oh yeah. Of course.

Brian: Pays for itself.

David: Yeah.

Brian: Yeah, we grow the pie and I think a lot of people who we're working with, the really talented ones, know their market, know what the market will bear, know how to build a good product, know how to get money for value and those are the people we're excited about because we're supplying the capital to do it, because we're not equity partners with you, you're getting all the upside of your talent know how. Right? That's the reason that borrowing is great. That's why every real estate investor who's really gotten to the point where they truly can cash flow and you know, and got themselves there quickly, you know, usually has borrowed their way to the top.

David: Oh yeah.

Brian: Right? I mean that's, at the end of the day.

David: Absolutely man. I'm buying a 23 unit right now, I'm going to be buying this thing for 750 thousand. I need about 200 thousand to renovate it. I'm using a hard money lender that's local and we are paying like 12 and 2, I believe.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So 12 percent annualized, 2 points on the back.

Brian: Yep.

David: Which is in my opinion, better than 2 points on the front just because-

Brian: It is, yeah.

David: -it's more operating capital.

Brian: Well and that's why we roll points into the balance because you end up paying it on the back.

David: Okay, so that was my next question.

Brian: It's the same idea, yup.

David: But really what I was getting at, why I even brought that up is because this deal's going to be worth, you know, 1.3 and we're going to be into it for 9 or 950 right? And you know, we're going to borrow every penny or as much as we possibly can to do it.

Brian: Of course.

David: We're gonna refinance it, we're gonna use the BRRRR method like I love to teach all my students to do.

Brian: Yes sir.

David: And we might even cash out refi on the exit. We might even walk with 30 or 40 grand, right?

Brian: Yeah.

David: So it's such a cool approach. So paying that 12% and that 2 points isn't-

Brian: Its not hurting you.

David: It might even be 3 points, I can't even remember, I need to look at it but-

Brian: It may be.

David: At the at the end of the day though, that you know, what seemingly is a high rate is a short term.

Brian: Right.

David: It's not a 20-year deal, it's, you know, it's-

Brian: Correct.

David: You know, we're getting a 10 month loan on this particular one but like you said, we're going to scramble to try to get it paid back in 7 or 8 or it maybe even 6, right?

Brian: Yeah.

David: Get these repairs done, get these refi launched and going and roll with it.

Brian: The tough thing I see is guys with a good W2 who are getting into this game, you know, maybe they've had a corporate job for a long time and they're thinking about sort of a second act, you know, where they're out of the corporate rat race and they're build- going to build up a portfolio. They're kind of shocked at how much you have to pay for the money, you know, to do these projects because they're used to borrowing, you know, they're doing a jumbo mortgage at 2, 3, 4 percent, they're like what is this world where I'm paying this money and they have to realize it's the opportunity cost of their equity.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Brian: It's the opportunity cost of their equity. It's doing another deal, it's buying some Bitcoin, it's yeah, it's buying some more of the S&P 500 which keeps it new highs every month, right? Like it's what is the opportunity cost of your capital? And why wouldn't you free up your capital in this world that we're in today, right?

David: Absolutely.

Brian: I mean housing prices are- maybe they go sideways, I don't think so. There's certainly enough demand relative to supply that this is a great place to be, you know, with a real asset and I think our borrowers are going to do just fine no matter what they pay on the debt side honestly. We try to deliver as low-cost capital as we can but we try to load it up with these features so that you can monetize your talent, right? And get true value for it.

David: I love it. So let's talk points.

Brian: Saddest thing I see is guys who- guys who don't want to pay those rates so they go get a partner who's gonna split profits with them.

David: Yeah, which takes 50%.

Brian: Yeah, it's terrible. Right.

David: Right. 50% of the net profit.

Brian: Right. Talk about a big number.

David: Whenever you could be selling out like 10% of the net profit, in some cases less than that if you're okay paying the interest at 12 or 13 or 14 percent because it's you have to factor it into the entire deal. I totally get it.

Brian: You do, yeah.

David: I don't think that those rates are crazy at all. What's- how does the points work? And then let's walk through a scenario if you don't mind.

Brian: Sure. Points are typically for us between 3 and 4 percent depending what you're doing, depending on loan size and some other conditions.

David: But you guys have additional administration documents and crowdfunding requirements so I get it.

Brian: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, and we don't- we don't charge investors to invest in our platform, we just pay exactly what our borrowers pay directly to the investors and so it's fair, right? It's a total pass through. The way we make our money is on the points and fees at the beginning. We feel like we have to sing for our supper, we got to be a good partner. We think we are, you know, we provide all these features and bells and whistles and I think most people look at it and they decide it's worth it and they decide to pay it, you know.

David: Sure. Now are the points on the front or the back? Or does it vary?

Brian: They're on the back because we roll them in, right? You don't pay it until the end.

David: Got it.

Brian: So it goes into your loan balance and then you're basically borrowing to pay the points and then at the end when you get cashed out, you know, and you're repaying the loan, that's when you're actually going to pay. It's going to come out of the profits of your deal.

David: So no monthly payments.

Brian: Correct.

David: No cost of the points up front, they're rolled in. So you roll in the interest all the way to the what will be the date that you pay it off, what's that called? Settlement date?

Brian: Maturity. Maturity date, yeah.

David: Maturity date, there you go.

Brian: Yeah.

David: Maturity.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So you- so all the interest isn't due until maturity.

Brian: Correct.

David: Points are not due until maturity.

Brian: Correct.

David: Closing costs can be rolled in if wanted, also paid at maturity.

Brian: Correct.

David: You lend 90% unless somebody's got 8 or more transactions and they're verified so on so forth.

Brian: We do a hundred.

David: You'll lend up to up to a hundred percent. So with the 90%, is that also purchase and repairs too?

Brian: Yeah.

David: Holy cow, that's awesome. Very, very cool.

Brian: It's a hell of a deal.

David: And then 3 to 4 points on the back as well but again, that's standard. Again, I'm paying the local guy right now and he's a friend, I truly highly respect this guy and he's a friend of mine. I told him, I said-

Brian: Again, know where your capital is coming from, right? The source matters.

David: Know where your capital's coming from. I told him, I said, man you know, we're going to probably pay 70, 80 grand in interest on this deal over the next 8 or 10 months, if I'm gonna pay that to somebody, I'd really like to pay it to somebody I know and respect and he was like, cool. But a lot of people don't- there's a lot of people-

Brian: He didn't say, why are you doing it with me?

David: Hahaha, no, not at all. But there's a lot of people out there that don't know that guy. They don't have that seven year long relationship-

Brian: They don't. Right.

David: -with you know, somebody that I would almost consider a mentor of mine.

Brian: Correct.

David: You know what I'm saying?

Brian: Yeah.

David: Indirectly, I never necessarily hired him to coach me, but I went to the tons of REIA meetings that he hosted and took him to lunch and you know, picked his brain several times and just given back to him even you know, so I love it. So the- so what would be the difference- the diff- the differentiator, that's the word I'm looking for, between you know, somebody paying 9, 10, 11, 12 percent? What does this have to do with experience? Does it have to do with-

Brian: Number one factor is experience.

David: Okay.

Brian: So your experience level and we verify that. We want to see public transaction records, we want to know that you were part of the entity, you know, we want to look at your experience and have it be verifiable, you know, and if it is, then you're going to get our very best rates, you're going to get the best grade as you know, we great every loan A through G. How much money you put into the deal has something to do with it. You know, that's another really big factor. There are a few other things, but those are the  two main ones is sort of-

David: Those are the two main factors.

Brian: How much- how much skin are you putting in the game and how much experience do you have, and there's some other factors that weighed in there, you know, the ZIP code makes a little difference. How much do we like the ZIP code? Do we rate it highly for liquidity in particular? More liquid markets for example.

David: I would think the ZIP code would matter. I would think that would be just as important as the person.

Brian: The truth is we would weight the ZIP code more highly if we didn't grow up in our lending- our initial market was Atlanta and we know neighborhoods in Atlanta well that you can go to a zip code and forget the zip code, you know, you need to know which block it is in order to really know how things are going to trade.

David: Right.

Brian: But we use- we use- because we lend in so many places, we use zip code as like a rough rule of thumb and so we don't value it as highly as we would if we were in a local market actually there, you know. So those are the main factors and I think, you know, you just have to decide for yourself is do you want to put more cash in it and have it better margined or do you wanna you know, lever it up and you know, borrow more and pay more. It's up to you.

David: Yeah. What's the cheapest and what's the most expensive rates that you're typically seeing? Just random.

Brian: The cheapest we've got out there right now are about 6 or 6 and a half percent, you know, if you- if you're experienced and you put a lot of cash in the deal yourself. I think the most expensive we're seeing realistically, the most- I mean, geez I mean we've done loans-

David: Just from the hip, from the hip is fine.

Brian: We've done loans that have been you know, 16% in special situations.

David: Sure.

Brian: But more typically, it's like 12 or 14 would be at the upper end of what you pay.

David: Yeah okay. Let's say 12 to 14, because you're always going to have those oddballs that come in there and-

Brian: Sure.

David: They need- yeah. Okay so let's talk about-

Brian: We've done some second liens, we've done some mezzanine debt, you know that stuff is-

David: Yeah yeah. I'm not even- I don't want to go down that rabbit hole today but yeah, I totally get that. But yeah 12 to 14 is really really competitive guys, that's really good. 6 to 6 and a half is super cheap. Even with my private lenders, I'm typically paying them 10 to 12 percent and these are private lenders guys, not hard money lenders, you know, so the fact that you guys might even be able to beat some of my private lender rates is something that I definitely am interested to look at. Let's talk about time frames.

Brian: Yeah.

David: As an investor. I am typically buying- well let's back up, as a marketer, I am marketing to buy tons of properties and in fact, my company typically is buying anywhere from 6 to 12 houses a month, right? Some of these we're buying to rent out, some of these we're buying to wholesale, some of these we're buying to fix and flip. And in order to get a deal, a discount on a property hence the name of the podcast, discount property investor, we often need to close quickly, we need to be able to pay cash and we need to be able to buy the property as is, so you guys don't have a problem with the property that's you know, let's say $100 purchase price that needs 30 grand worth of work? That's not going to kill the deal, right? Assuming the ARV's 200.

Brian: So we want to make sure, we have seen and it is always a discussion, right? We're looking at the prices and indicator of the quality of that collateral, right?

David: Okay.

Brian: So in your example, you know, if you're buying it for a 100k, you're well above those thresholds, right? If you're buying it for sub 50, sub 25, we're going to take an extra look, right? And say-

David: Yeah, cuz it's- totally.

Brian: We just want to make sure like, okay well, why are you getting it for that? We're also on the flip side by the way, we also see a lot of deals that trade wholesaler to wholesaler, about 2 to 3 hops, and so we'll put a limit on how much we'll support on the upper end as well, right? Cuz we want to make sure- we want to make sure that all that value isn't getting eaten up by the supply chain.

David: Oh yeah, totally. And that can happen.

Brian: But we also-

David: And that can easily happen.

Brian: But we also work with some wholesalers who we know are good guys, right? And have good properties flowing out and we actually provide some transactional finance to wholesalers.

David: That's who you guys transactional too. That's cool.

Brian: We do yeah, you know, less than 30 days. So we'll be there with certain wholesalers that we know well. We have that money available and we like that because when we do that transactional finance, we get an early look at these deals, we can pre underwrite, we kind of know what the value is, and then hopefully that wholesaler is telling their buyer, you know, their investor about us and we're ready to do the deal. So we like some of those, so you get too low or too high, you know, as a lender, we got to watch out, right?

David: Yeah. You're going to take an extra look at those. Absolutely. Okay, cool. What is the typical time frame?

Brian: I mean we actually think that's a good- we actually think that's a good thing because our underwriting staff is kind of like a second set of eyes.

David: Oh yeah.

Brian: You know? For you as an investor, right? We may see things that you didn't see, you know.

David: Absolutely.

Brian: We've had people thank us for suggesting eh you may not want to do that deal or if we do it, we got to do it under these conditions.

David: Yeah, you're going to pay more because it's a higher risk deal.

Brian: Right.

David: We see risk here, are you seeing this risk here? But like you said, it's a second set of eyes.

Brian: It's [inaudible].

David: And that's-

Brian: Yeah.

David: That's something that we do all the time when we're dealing with appraisers or-

Brian: Yeah.

David: You know, even contractors, you know, like hey you know, we're estimating 40 and they look at us and they say you're crazy, this is 60. Okay woah, what am I not seeing here?

Brian: Whoa, yeah.

David: That extra set of eyes is a really, really big deal. So, what's the typical time frame? Let's say I come across a really really good deal and you know, it's a BRRRR method like something I've done a hundred times.

Brian: Yeah, yeah.

David: So here's a perfect example, house has an ARV of, you know, 150 and I can buy it for 80 and it needs 20.

Brian: Yeah.

David: That's a good deal.

Brian: That's a great deal. That's an awesome deal.

David: Great deal. Yeah okay.

Brian: I like it.

David: So I get that deal, I send a contract on it because I don't need to ask anybody permission to do that, I'm going to do that but then they accept it. Oh shoot, what do I do now? Where do we go from there?

Brian: Start getting your shit together.

David: This is a- I chose this example Brian because this is a real world example that I see 2 to 3 times a month either from students or just random people that reach out to me because of all the education I put out and I'm like this is a great problem to have.

Brian: Yeah, it is. It's a great problem.

David: So now we're going to hustle our butts off and we're going to figure this out.

Brian: Yeah.

David: But before this problem, you didn't have any inventory on your shelf, now you do, right?

Brian: Right.

David: Okay, so we get this great deal and we're going to reach out to I'm assuming we're going to go over there, we're going to create an account.

Brian: We're going to get you on- we're gonna get you on the phone with one of our folks, one of our originators. Hopefully you've already filled out sort of the pre-application if you will and so we know who you are, we know what you're doing. If you've done deals with us before, you've got a leg up on the process.

David: It'll be a smoother process.

Brian: Yeah, because we already have a file on you.

David: I work with [inaudible] a lot. They don't lend you dollar, they helped me sell deals nationwide. I'm sure you're very familiar with that company. I think I probably sold 25 houses on there in the last 18 months.

Brian: Nice. That's awesome

David: But yeah, once you do one or two, the process gets super streamlined.

Brian: Yes.

David: Yes.

Brian: So, you know, so if your first time, you know you've got to get set up with us. You gotta-

David: Yeah, and it's gonna take some time. That's okay.

Brian: We gotta figure- we got to figure out who you are. But the longest thing that investors I think don't realize especially when you're buying a discount is title. Title stretches out more deals than any other factor.

David: Yeah, every state's a little different.

Brian: Every- yeah every- now we have a really tight title operation, right? And we start working it from the moment you tell us about the deal. You know, you show us what you're under contract for, we are working title because we know that's what holds it up most of the time. It's not- it's not you giving us our scope of work because most investors, you know, are pretty thoughtful about their budgets. They know what they want to spend on it, you know, it's not a hard thing to get to us, you know, it's the title and when you're buying at a discount, it's trading at a discount for a reason, you know, and a lot of that reason is sometimes title, and so we got to get it through that process. That's the gauntlet, you know, cheers to the entrepreneurs who are working on cryptocurrency blockchain solutions for title out there because when all that happens, it'll probably be a lot easier to know who owns what.

David: Yeah I can't wait man.

Brian: Who has what clans.

David: That's a great thing. Hopefully that's sooner than later.

Brian: It's gonna be a great thing. But you know, it's not going to- it's going to take a long time to disrupt that system so I think typically know- you know, getting into title and knowing what you're dealing with quickly and don't delay on that. I think that's my number one piece of advice. And if you do that, I mean, you know, if you're known to us and you get through title quickly and we'll fund deals in 5 days or 7 days.

David: Nice.

Brian: We'll be very, very fast.

David: You guys can act quickly.

Brian: And more typical- the more typical time frame, you know, by the time you do title and all this stuff as a new person could be two or three weeks, you know, it's more typical.

David: Okay, so whenever you- whenever the customer, me as in the borrower, or how do you refer to your customers? Is it customer or is it borrower?

Brian: I mean, we'll call it- I mean, look, I honor all of you guys as entrepreneurs, you're like me, right? Your- you are creating value in the world, you are taking risk. I view these folks as entrepreneurs. I think most people call themselves investors, you know?

David: Yeah, entrepreneurs or investors, I love it. Okay, so let's go with investors, I like that better.

Brian: Okay.

David: So these investors they find the deal, they come to you, you guys underwrite it, does it then go on the platform for people to buy into or is there money set aside already prefunded basically?

Brian: No, we're going to- we're going to fund it ourselves. We pre-fund it.

David: Okay so then-

Brian: We're ready when you are.

David: - when you guys are prefunding- so you just allocate resources that are already ready to go.

Brian: Yup.

David: So when these investors go in, I'm assuming they have either a low medium or high tolerance type of a portfolio that they get to pick from.

Brian: Yeah yeah, I mean-

David: Or no?

Brian: So no, they pick individual deals.

David: Oh okay, cool.

Brian: So they're looking at- they're looking at your deal. You know, there's like, oh David Dodge, I know that guy. He's a good investor.

David: I've seen him on the platform like five times and-

Brian: I want to be in his deal.

David: Yeah, let's get in his deal. Okay.

Brian: I'm gonna- you know, and the average investment is 200 bucks. I'd bet people probably put 2000 in your deal, you know. They'll be like: that guy knows what he's doing, I like the collateral, it's sweet you know, let's go.

David: Yeah, he's got a YouTube channel and everything. Awesome. Okay.

Brian: It's legit, right? So people can pick not only what property they put- they go into, but how much money they're putting in, right?

David: Nice, nice.

Brian: So your deal- a lot of investors like that. They look at it like hey there's my deal getting funded, I got a thousand investors in my deal. The great thing about it is it's no skin off your back. You're not going to hear from those people, you don't have to manage those people. You just deal with us.

David: Nice.

Brian: You know, we have a- we have a servicing team that is great to work with, highly professional, they know what they're doing.

David: Do deals ever get into the system and then not get fully funded?

Brian: Nah, we fund everything.

David: Really?

Brian: Even if it- even if a deal doesn't get fully subscribed-

David: Because basically you guys aren't going to even put it on the platform if it doesn't make sense, first and foremost.

Brian: Yeah. It's gotta pass our filters, right?

David: Yeah, if it doesn't pass the filters, it's not getting there and that's why all the deals are getting funded because they're deals.

Brian: Of course.


David: Yeah, got it. Okay.

Brian: Right. They're good deals.

David: Yeah.

Brian: People now- I mean where else are you going to earn 10% on your money and have it turn over, 10% annual rate on your money and have it turnover every 9, 10 months with the security of a first lien behind it?

David: With the- that's the kicker, with the security of that first lien.

Brian: Where else are you gonna find that?

David: So I have to ask just because I am not a novice investor.

Brian: Yeah.

David: Some deals go bad.

Brian: They do.

David: Nobody wants to talk about this, right?

Brian: I love talking about it.

David: I do too, because I'm sure you guys have an awesome solution, that's why I want to bring it up.

Brian: We do.

David: Yeah. So how does that work?

Brian: It starts when we make the loan.

David: Okay.

Brian: So we're asking you for a scope of work that tells us- with the draw schedule. What's your schedule? Now, we're all- we're all grown-ups, we know schedules change, we know we learn new things in the course of a project, that's fine. The people who have the most successful experience with us when things go wrong are the people who are great communicators, right?

David: Yeah.

Brian: They say- they said it- I mean look, as in life and in business, if you set expectations and you communicate to change expectations, in most cases, you're going to do great in any kind of relationship and we want the same thing. So we ask for updates every 30 days, most projects have about 4 or 5 or 6 draws. When there's a draw, we're going to send an inspector out just to check things out. Hopefully our inspector gives us the same report that you're giving us, it matches up. If not, we're going to hop on the phone with you and say what's the- what's going on? What's the difference? Or if you're behind schedule, we're going to- and you haven't told us what- that you're behind schedule, we're going to call you up and say hey what's going on? You know, what- are you just waiting for permits? Are you- what's happening? You know, and I think we enjoy having relationships with people who are comfortable with that, you know, and realize hey I got to manage expectations, I got to be clear about what's happening. And so if that's going on, 9 times out of 10, 19 times out of 20, we enter into a forbearance agreement or a workout, you know, during the process, a couple months before maturity, at the time of maturity, that says alright, looks like we need another 3 months and we all agree we probably need another $10,000 to get this done. How are we going to do that? Right? We just want to know there's a credible plan and that people are honest and not-

David: Do you guys fund that extra cash if needed in certain sales?

Brian: We have. We have in certain sales.

David: Wow, sure. Okay, very cool.

Brian: I mean it just depends on what the situation is, right?

David: Yeah, absolutely. No but the fact that it's like, not a hundred percent black and white I think is-

Brian: No, it can't be.

David: See that's the thing, it can't be it.

Brian: It can't be, we have a-

David: There has to be a human element.

Brian: We have a scoring-

David: And the human element isn't just black and white.

Brian: Absolutely. We have a scoring system, right?

David: Sure.

Brian: That helps our people to do this because you know, we have 817 loans in our portfolio right now, you know, so we can't pay special attention to all 817. We have a scoring system that tells us which of the 817 need our time and attention, right? And if you score- you racked up a lot of points on that scoring system, we want to talk to you frequently, you know, we want to say okay, what's happening? How do we change this?

David: Yeah, how are things? How can we help even? Yeah exactly.

Brian: Right, exactly. That's what we're looking for. I mean we're here- look, our business is not a one and done, ours is a relationship business. We want you to be successful on this project, take that money, roll it into your next project or two, do it with us, you know, that's what we're looking for. So we want that outcome and we've even had situations where you know, we've ended up doing a deed-in-lieu where we said okay well, we know you can't take it over and then a couple years later we're back in business together, right? Like we've actually had people who'd run into trouble but they managed it so well, they actually got another loan from us because we know that things happen.

David: Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So time frame is essentially days to weeks then, right?

Brian: Yeah sure. I mean, I think people should be as they're planning your purchase contract, you know, just because the title and other factors, the longer you can stretch it out, the better.

David: For sure.

Brian: You know I realized in this market, people want a fast close so you know, you want to- you want to- the thing to do is to start the conversation with us and say what do you think it's going to take? And our sales people are trained to give you a very honest assessment, right?

David: So what about a-

Brian: We don't want to tell you- we don't want to set an unrealistic expectation that then threatens your deal.

David: Yeah no, I totally get that. So what about like proof of funds? If somebody is like, you know, let's say that they're approved in your system already and they-

Brian: Sure.

David: And they even have proved to you guys those 8 deals essentially, right?

Brian: Sure, yeah.

David: And they're- and they- you verified transactions and they've worked themself up, you know, and crossed all the t's and dotted all their i's essentially and they want to go buy this property that's worth 350 and they can get it for 150 and it only needs 50 grand worth of work, like that is a deal all day, I don't care what state you're in.

Brian: Let's go. Right.

David: Like that's a deal, right? So but they don't have- they have 15 grand in their checking account. How do they get that deal?

Brian: Well, I mean they got a- they've got to have enough cash, right? To put up to it. We're not- we're going to believe you. You tell us you have the cash, we're not going to say well show us your bank state, right? You've got to cobble the cash together and you tell us how much cash you can put it, we'll tell you how much the minimum is that you got to put in on that deal.

David: Okay, got it. That makes sense.

Brian: We'll tell you. So in your example [inaudible].

David: And those are the variables that are going to affect the rate too. How much they're putting in as well. So in that case, if they put in-

Brian: Correct. On your example, you said I get to buy it- I get to buy it for 150, I've got 15, you know, you may need- you may need a smidge more just to pay the costs and whatever but you're within the zone.

David: But you're close. Okay.

Brian: Yeah, if they're within the zone.

David: Got it, awesome. So they could essentially get you know, a pre-approval from you guys.

Brian: Sure.

David: And then send to that investor. That's a big thing that we stumble across is anytime there's an agent involved, they want proof of funds because they don't want to waste their time and I get it.

Brian: Right, yeah.

David: You know, as a wholesaler-

Brian: Yeah I mean we-

David: -I don't have the money to buy the property typically, I'm using contracts to control it.

Brian: Yeah right.

David: But even if I am going to buy it as a rental, I'm- I hate using my money, you know, like I've done probably 300 transactions essentially to date where I borrowed money to do deals and I love doing that approach.

Brian: Of course.

David: If I can have my own money like you said Brian in the S&P or in some crypto or doing whatever I wanted to do and not tied up in these deals, you know, it just makes my business more fun and it runs smoother and-

Brian: Buy another Tesla.

David: Buy another Tesla, right. It's actually more-it's actually more- it's more fun and personally, I think it's less stressful when it's somebody else's money versus my money.

Brian: I agree.

David: I don't know why I feel that way. I know some people are going to say, oh you're crazy Dave, when I'm borrowing it, that's going to stress me out. Well, that's fine. Do it a couple times. After a while, the money is really never the issue you know, it's finding the deal that's the issue or managing people, that's typically the issues that I've seen from my experience.

Brian: And I think that's true as long as your sourcing the capital, as long as you're paying attention to where you're sourcing the capital, and I think that's what I've learned in this business over the last 8, 9 years is look, where you source your capital really matters, and we've seen people get upside down because they were happy to have the money but they weren't paying attention to where they were getting it from. You want to make sure you're getting it from somewhere that's professional, competitive, reliable, you know, not looking to loan to own, you know, that's the problem, right? With a lot of hard money lenders or private lenders, they're-

David: Yeah, and you know-

Brian: They're looking for deal flow.

David: There's a couple lenders that I've run into and I'm not going to point my finger at anybody because that's not what we do on this show but I agree with you. There are a couple lenders that I've run across recently that, you know, I can tell that they're going to be hard to get ahold of once you- once they give you this initial loan and they don't really care if you pay them back. They may just want the property and it's like-

Brian: They're ready to foreclose, they got the foreclosure papers ready to go, right?

David: Yeah, before yeah, right when they send you the loan, there's- they're filling out the foreclosure papers like unbelievable, like they don't want you to succeed, they want to succeed by seeing you fail. It's blows me away.

Brian: And that's a good- I'll tell you: that's the thing about us is a foreclosure for us is not a win.

David: Everything you said so far, it goes against that mindset which is perfect.

Brian: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Brian: Foreclosure is not a win for us, you know?

David: Right.

Brian: That stretches out the time that our investors get paid back. You know, they get anxious, you know, we have to- we have to deal with that, you don't deal with that as the borrower. Right.

David: So look, we we're gonna talk about this and I think I probably said something and we changed the subject.

Brian: No, not at all.

David: So let's jump back to that just really quick here.

Brian: Yeah.

David: So, you know, deals go bad, it happens guys.

Brian: Yeah, of course.

David: I've only had 2 bad deals luckily out of about 700, and both of those I overpaid. So guess what? I double-check now when I look when I buy a deal. Are we overpaying? That's how I've lost money in the past. It happens. Let's say I'm an investor and I come in and I put 5 grand into a deal, you know, somebody else's deal and I'm on the lender side of it, you know, and they can't get it to work. Yeah, we have this first lien but I'm just a- I'm just a silent investor here.

Brian: Correct.

David: So what does Groundfloor do, you know, what's- what do those steps look like? I'm just curious.

Brian: So the steps for us-

David: I know it could be different in certain scenarios too.

Brian: Well, it is. I mean, here are the common things though. We're communicating, remember I said we need an update at least every 30 days from the borrower? We're turning around and we're passing those updates along to our investor community-

David: cool.

Brian: -via your investor dashboard, you can read blow-by-blow what's happened to the deal? Did it get extended? Is there work out? You know, is it listed for sale? Did we install a refrigerator? You know, what'd we do?

David: Yeah, so you probably encourage pictures then I'd imagine.

Brian: Sure we love pictures, right? We love to see the pictures but we don't demand them.

David: Sure.

Brian: You know, we just want to know what's happening.

David: Yeah, you want an update though, okay.

Brian: Yup.

David: Got it.

Brian: And so that's all happening. Now, you ask what happens when it gets down to foreclosure time, right? What happens to the guy and his 5 thousand dollar investment?

David: Yeah, so you know, and it could be the fact- it could be- so this could go either way and I don't think the outcome really matters but-

Brian: Sure.

David: -it could be clean where the borrower/investor just says, I screwed up, I can't do this, I'm going to assign this back over to you.

Brian: Yeah, and that has happened.

David: Or the opposite.

Brian: Yeah, that's happened.

David: Yeah, the opposite of that would be like screw everybody, you know like-

Brian: Yeah. I'm gonna burn it down. Hahaha.

David: Yeah, right. And here's the thing: guys, it's gonna- both of those are going to be very very possible scenarios, right?

Brian: Sure. It's going to happen, people- this is- people put a lot of their blood, sweat, tears, hopes and dreams into this work, we know that. You know, our asset managers will you know, frequently hear from people who are emotional and they're upset, you know, they're begging for more time or they're you know, they're in a bad spot, right? And we realize that so one of our company values is kindness. We know that good people get into bad situations and we train our people to be kind. We think the world needs more kindness, that's why it's one of our eight values as a company and hopefully, nobody out there has an experience with one of our asset managers that's different from that.

David: I love that man. When people come to me and say, hey teach me how to sell, like how do I go present my offers? And I'm like listen, there's a hundred tips and tricks in the book but 80% of it is just making friends with people.

Brian: Be a good person, you know?

David: You know, nobody wants to do business with somebody they don't like or trust.

Brian: Have some empathy.

David: Everything man, I love that. I love that.

Brian: Have some empathy, and so we start with empathy. Now look, if the- if the person's in over their head and they want to quit claim it to us, we are ready and able to take over. That's fine. We have done that many many times and we get a great result, you know. It's good because you get out from under the pressure of it, our investors, if we're doing a quick claim deed, you know, they're getting their money back. It's all going to work out just fine.

David: Yeah, so you guys take the property back either-

Brian: We will.

David: -easily or sometimes you may have to have a lawyer involved.

Brian: We may have to go to court, you know, if it's in a judicial foreclosure state, we got to go to court. Then we spend a lot of money, that's on us, we got to spend that money to recover it. Nobody likes the situations where you're fighting it out. Sometimes people try to-

David: And then do you guys typically list it with a local agent to sell it and liquidate it? Or are you guys going in and finishing the rehab? Or like- the reason I ask-

Brian: Well we haven't-

David: -is the answer doesn't even matter, I'm just super curious because I see this stuff happening around me all the time. Not all the time, let's be honest.

Brian: Yeah. It happens.

David: This is a really rare scenario, but over 7 years, I've seen it a few times.

Brian: Yeah.

David: Put it that way.

Brian: So we've had- we've had situations where we actually go hire out contractors to go finish something up.

David: Finish it up, hey it's almost done.

Brian: So we can list it, it's almost done.

David: Looks great, right.

Brian: We more commonly will go to our network of real estate investors, and so, one of the great things about doing business with us is sometimes we'll have deals in your area that we'll say look we need somebody to take over, you can earn some equity here, you run with it, right? We've already got the loan, it's ready to go. If you want to borrow some money from us, we're happy to do another loan on it. We've done that.

David: Anytime you guys come across a St. Louis deal, hit me up Brian.

Brian: I well. I'm glad I got my man in St. Louis now, that's good.

David: That's right. Yeah, this is my only market that I- I market in couple other markets but this is the only market I buy in, everything else is wholesale.

Brian: I'm actually going to be driving through there in a few weeks so I should come, I should-

David: Yeah hit me up man, we'll get some lunch.

Brian: I should hit you up. For sure.

David: I would love to take you out to lunch, that's be great.

Brian: That'd be fun. And so you know, look, at the end of the day it's about a relationship and that's what we want, we want to get a relationship. If we have to go to war and fight it out because somebody's being unreasonable and they just feel like they've been wrong, we've done that and it costs a lot of time and money, nobody likes it, you know, but that's part of what we're all buying into, right? We know that, we're eyes are open about that.

David: Right. Man, I love it. Brian, this has been an awesome episode. I appreciate you coming on, super grateful for your time. I have learned a ton. I can't wait to learn more about this. I mean, the fact that no monthly payments is- that's crazy awesome, closing costs being rolled into the loan, you guys will do up to 90, maybe even a 100% depending on people's experience, residential smaller multi's but mainly residential, and it can work for the fix and flipper, it can work for the landlord that's using the BRRRR method or even people that are somewhat using the BRRRR method, doesn't matter right? New construction, you guys even offer transactional short-term lending for the wholesaler which is awesome.

Brian: We'll do it.

David: Right?

Brian: Yup.

David: And depending on your experience, depending on where the properties at, putting on the deal, there's gonna be a couple factors guys that are going to depend or that are going to determine the rate at which you pay. However, on the flip side of that is when you're making these investments, you're going to be to capitalize on the higher risk deals to get a higher return unlike these other platforms that I had mentioned like Lending Club and Prosper, and I hope that you don't mind that I bring those two up. They're nothing like what you guys do.

Brian: Sure.

David: But they're also very similar to what you guys do.

Brian: It's structured the same.

David: The cool part though- yeah, the similarity is the crowdfunding but the difference is the security of a first lien. Nobody's doing that. This is awesome. I love it man. Very, very cool. You can get funded in days to weeks and what am I missing man? I think that's it. I think I've wrapped up a good thing here.

Brian: You got it. You nailed it.

David: But really though, again guys, you can also be the investor on this. So if you're looking to fund deals and I know I have tons of students that are constantly coming to me and they're looking for a lender that can help them out and you know, I typically tell them hey go to your local REIA but covid has killed that and it's hard.

Brian: It's tough.

David: Like some of the REIA's are starting to come back now which is great but there's a lot of these REIA's that aren't and it's- it is hard for a lot of people to find the capital if they don't know where to look. So guys if you are listening or watching and/or viewing this podcast, connect with Brian over at Groundfloor. Brian, do you have a- do you have a contact information or a favorite social media platform or would you prefer people go to the website? You tell me.

Brian: Hit us up at, that's the best way. Go click on borrow and you will be in the flow, you can kinda put a deal in and start talking to our people about it, they'll be right with you pretty quickly if you do that. You know, people who are on Twitter, we're also, you know, groundfloor_com on Twitter so you can find us there. Yeah, I think we do some stuff on Instagram too, you can probably find us there. We're around. It's not too hard to find us or if you want to pop me an email, I'm just Brian, [email protected]. That's the cheat code to the email: .us.

David: All right, so [email protected], right?

Brian: Yep, that's me. Yep.

David: That's a good email to connect with Brian.

Brian: Absolutely.

David: Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for giving us about an hour of your time.

Brian: You're welcome.

David: And I'm looking forward to connecting with you man so when you do drive through St. Louis, hit me up a day or two before, we'll get you-

Brian: I will.

David: We'll get some lunch together. We can go down and look at the arch if you want and I just really want to get to know you a little bit more because I have tons of people that are constantly coming to me that need this right here. They need this product man. So I think that we're definitely going to be able to send you some business as well.

Brian: Sounds great.

David: So any parting words for the audience today?

Brian: Be good to each other man. It's tough out there for a lot of people so you never know what people are going through, just be good to each other.

David: Man I second that guys, be kind and that's one of the core values over there at Groundfloor guys, I love it. All right Brian, signing off for today. Guys, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a positive review and you make your money when you buy, you get paid when you sell, so learn how to buy right and all the doors, all the exit strategies will be wide open to you and you can get out there and you can make money, hopefully with little to none of your own. Signing off guys.

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